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Thread: Building an AR For Home Defense(tech branch load of questions)

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdrums View Post
    Honestly then why get an AR for home defense? For $400-500 you can get a high quality shot gun that would be a more reliable and better home defense weapon.
    Oh **** me...

    There is not one thing the shotgun does better than the carbine for home defense.
    "You people have too much time on your hands." - scottryan

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by gfanikf View Post
    What is the preferred length for an AR that is specifically for HD?

    I'm just going to organize this in Q&A form like a good old tech branch letter so it will be easy to answer and also statements, which people should feel free to correct and sound off on.

    1. I suspect the best length would most likely be an SBR, but I'm wondering what is the best length/gas system? I don't want something that is pretty much a PDW weapon or so short that it make getting an AR platform kind of pointless. Also for NFA SBRs who are the go to people for those upper?

    2. In terms of potential hearing safety, does a suppressor make sense? I am not going to try and put on muffs in an sd situation. I could miss my wife calling, my daughter or a noise from an intruder or that could have just been my cat.

    I know a can will add length, but I would think preventing hearing damage and I feel being thrown off but a shot fired inside. I always use earpro so I know it would through me off and beyond the hearing just possibly my eyes from the flash. I also want to make it so that god forbid my wife (who doesn't like guns, more in the don't waste money than any gun control reason) or one of our parents if they are watching my daughter (I will try me give people basic instructions so it won't be a total as you go along situation).

    If a can is a good idea what's an economical recommendation for one with noise and flash reduction in a dwelling as the main mission? For cost reasons if I can't swing a suppressor for awhile is it better to just go with it unsupressed for the time being?

    3. What type of attachments make the most sense for home protection use? The gun is only for range use or home protection. So I don't need anything (while potentially fun) that is outside that mission. Is iron sights better than optics? If not what are good, but not super high priced optics.

    4. Does it make sense to get a stripped lower and have it made into a pistol so I can use a SBR upper (mostly for function and testing) while waiting for paper work? Obviously I'm not having a non pistol lower (even if its never been married to an upper) sitting around with an NFA upper. Should I just get a regular length and just use that for testing till I get a stamp? Honestly I'd rather not have to buy two uppers.

    5. Is there a way some can explain what makes a good lower and upper (say noveske, bcm, DD) vs a...lesser one like rguns, polymer ones, etc? I can understand a crappy one is out of spec or damaged, but what makes the best ones the best? Is it more the QA than the actual making or materials (ignoring polymer from the equation). Same with other parts such as lpks, uppers, barrels, etc.

    6. I plan to build this over time, what's the best buy order to go with one assuming an NFA build and another assuming a non NFA build? It seems parts and ar supplies are almost back to normal pricing and stockwise. Mags are definitely, and only ammo and reloading stuff being iffy.

    7. Speaking of mags and ammo, what do people suggestion for something that might have to be fired in a dwelling? Also can people recommend a practice ammo? I can't afford to just practice only with defensive ammo.

    8. Also I don't have a big budget to work with, so I can't go super high end. I want to be able to protect my family, and while I'm not trying to cheap out with the highpoint of ARs to protect my family, I can't go super high end either.


    Some additonal facts; I'm left handed and I should add that I live in PA, so NFA weapons (with the apparently exception of explosive DD ammo) is kosher (Le chaim). Currently live in a second floor apt, my bedroom is the room furthest from the front door, our daughters bedroom is a room ahead (so hunker down is not an option in a suspected home invasion...besides I also have to make sure the cat is safe too). Guns are kept in a locked storage locker in the walk in closet. Ammo and mags on a shelf in the walk in closet. The hallway isn't narrow, but maneuverability would be hard with a full size rifle if facing against a wall. The area itself is very safe and a suburb of Philadelphia, but still why not protect yourself when you can.

    Our Sheriff is NFA friendly, but I'm also a PA (and NY) licensed attorney, so I'll most likely just do a trust so I don't have to bother with the additional fingerprints. We also have a very strong castle doctrine law, so barring anything bizarre like dragging a guy back into my house and shooting him (which would be murder vs a sticky fact pattern), I'm not worried about using legally owned NFA weapons or if its taken as evidence/confiscated/PD uses it for some...if my family is safe, that's all I care about.

    I shoot far better with a rifle than I do a handgun, dramatically so. Only handguns I have are 22 or a 38 S&W gun that the RHKP used to own. Only other rifles are 22lr (m&p 15-22, savage bolt) and an IBM M1 Carbine which is the current HD current and while I love and shoot great with it, its not an optimal pic for reliability and age reasons. I don't want a shotgun. I'd prefer more ammo capacity and less recoil.

    Thanks in advance, and apologies if some of the questions have been asked a lot before.

    1. The SBR is a great length for a HD gun. I would also suggest a 16" middy as well. So if you do not own an AR, get the 16" first.
    The best name in the business for SBR's is Colt, BCM, DD, Noveske, KAC, etc.

    2. Cans are awesome and highly recommend them. My personal fav is the SF line.

    3. 80% of crime happens at night. You do not see well at night. So that means get a quality RDS (Aimpoint, etc) and a weapon mounted light (SF X300 is an excellent choice).

    4. Get a 16" AR first and then mess with the SBR thing later. I would also buy a FACTORY BUILT SBR so if there is any problems, the manufacturer will fix it. With a parts build, you are on the hook.

    5. Following the TDP. This separates the good from the bad. So stick with the brands I mentioned earlier.

    6. If you have never built an AR before. Don't do it. Buy a factory built gun.

    7. For defensive ammo, look at the TSX loads put out by BH's and the SPEER GD line. These are barrier blind rounds and GREATLY increase the effective range of the AR (especially SBR's). For training ammo, we sell the Magtech 5.56 line of ammo. Some of the best I have seen on the market to date.

    8. Good guns are under $1200. If you cannot swing that. Save your money until you can.

    While the above advice is good, here is the best advice I am going to give you. LEARN WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW! Meaning, take pistol and carbine classes. After completing these, take a home defense class. Being in PA, there are TONS of well known, high quality instructors coming into your State (thanks to ShawnL and Alias Training). So take advantage of this FIRST!



    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 07-05-13 at 10:26.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdrums View Post
    Honestly then why get an AR for home defense? For $400-500 you can get a high quality shot gun that would be a more reliable and better home defense weapon.
    Ever fired a shotgun in a shoot house? Ever watched people do it? I have. The SG is SUPER long and hard to navigate tight spaces with (even if you have extensive training on how to maneuver with one).

    An auto loading shotgun is NOT more reliable than a quality AR. A pump SG is not more reliable than an AR either (as human error kicks in and causes issues with the cycling of the gun).


    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 07-05-13 at 10:30.

  4. #44
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    Re: Building an AR For Home Defense(tech branch load of questions)

    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    It's an EXACT replica of what I carried in NAM!

    Right down to the gunfighter grip and pmag.
    Quote Originally Posted by mdrums View Post
    Pmag in Nam?
    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    That's where I invented it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RknidSamrRM

    Hook, line & sinker


    Sent via Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by JSantoro View Post
    Stop dicking the dog, please. It's gross.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryno12 View Post
    Hook, line & sinker
    Used to be like this on ARFcom. No matter how flagrantly sarcastic and over the top absurd a post was... there was always, without fail... someone who would take it seriously.
    "You people have too much time on your hands." - scottryan

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryno12 View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RknidSamrRM

    Hook, line & sinker


    Sent via Tapatalk
    LOL...wasn't exatcly serious just laughing about it....good one though

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Ever fired a shotgun in a shoot house? Ever watched people do it? I have. The SG is SUPER long and hard to navigate tight spaces with (even if you have extensive training on how to maneuver with one).

    An auto loading shotgun is NOT more reliable than a quality AR. A pump SG is not more reliable than an AR either (as human error kicks in and causes issues with the cycling of the gun).


    C4
    Understand...was just trying to say...maybe I am wrong but a $400-500 quality SG...thinking Mossberg, Remington is more trouble free than a low grade pieced together same priced AR. Correct?...or not? You have human error in AR's too.

    Nope never shot a SG in a house. But many have with an intruder coming in the door and with out exact aim have ended the intrusion. Wouldn't it take greater skill and aim with an AR than a SG?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdrums View Post
    Understand...was just trying to say...maybe I am wrong but a $400-500 quality SG...thinking Mossberg, Remington is more trouble free than a low grade pieced together same priced AR. Correct?...or not? You have human error in AR's too.

    Nope never shot a SG in a house. But many have with an intruder coming in the door and with out exact aim have ended the intrusion. Wouldn't it take greater skill and aim with an AR than a SG?
    General guideline (probably a bit generous) is 1" of spread per yard from the end of the barrel. Also depends upon the barrel length- presumably a 14" spreads more than an 18" etc. At typical room sized distances (maybe 9 feet?), you are looking at putting 7-9 pellets (assuming some type of buck) into 3". Your sights are typically a bead (although my Mossy 590-A1 has a cool set of actual sights). That isn't a huge margin for error. If the target is moving, partially obscured by furniture, darkness . . . a lot is working against making the shot. You also cannot make follow-up shots as quickly. Add in the risk of short stroking, reloading in the heat of action . . .

    At work I get a choice of a 14" 870 or an MP-5N. I take the MP-5 any day and twice on Sunday.

    I won't claim that this is an original thought, but the ubiquitiousness of the shotgun in American households does not make it an ideal fighting long arm. When you look at other engagement scenarios e.g. if you are running an 870 with buck for short range and a target appears at 25 yards, what do you do? Doing the whole transition from one round to another (buck to slug) is a cast iron bitch. Knowing how your weapon patterns with different loads at different distances- increases in complexity factor. If you are intending to fight with a shotgun, I think it is a professional's platform. I would just as soon get expert with the AR platform then work that much harder for a shotgun.

    Buy a copy of Magpul Dynamics' Art of the Dynamic Shotgun. I found it an eye opener, especially when you consider the softball shotgun course my agency uses. I didn't realize how much I didn't know until I watched it.

  9. #49
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    Mossberg 590 or rem 870 $500.00 if the concern for price is a factor.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdrums View Post
    Understand...was just trying to say...maybe I am wrong but a $400-500 quality SG...thinking Mossberg, Remington is more trouble free than a low grade pieced together same priced AR. Correct?...or not? You have human error in AR's too.
    Would I take a good SG over a crappy AR? Ya, probably, but it would have to be a pretty low end AR.

    While there are stupid user tricks with an AR, they generally do not happen DURING the firing of the weapon (like they do with a pump SG).


    Nope never shot a SG in a house. But many have with an intruder coming in the door and with out exact aim have ended the intrusion. Wouldn't it take greater skill and aim with an AR than a SG?
    If it takes just one round, then yes. Once you engage multiple threats or have to make several follow up shots (with a pump), this is when the wheels of the bus come off.

    I have seen people miss with a SG at close ranges. One of the reasons for this is they BELIEVE that they do not not have to aim them. This is a lie.

    Quite honestly, I rank the SG THIRD on the list behind an AR and a pistol for HD use.

    When selecting a HD weapon, the following thoughts SHOULD be going through ones head:

    1. Familiarity with weapon (meaning rounds fired and level of training achieved).
    2. Length. You do not want a long barrel leading you into every room. So short and compact weapons are a clear winner here.
    3. Ability to attach a RDS and a weapon light to (easily).



    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 07-05-13 at 14:04.

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