Thread removed???

[SHIVAN]

The sad thing is, it was not evident to a non-biased third party as myself, and I'm guessing would not have been evident to anyone else other than the 4 or 5 privy to this inside information. By posting responses publicly rather than handling comments via PM, it was laid bare for all to see.

This is the nature of this industry, and far truer than most of us would expect.

I've been together with people in this industry, interacting amicably, only to find out later, from both sides, that they despise each other.

We all have such common interests and believe in so many similar causes that I think it's tragically humorous, to be honest.

[SHIVAN]

...what would be the harm in bringing it to light here now...

For the people who really have a stake in this, there are only a few, they all know to whom they should talk and how to get those individuals' version of events.

Hashing it out here, serves no purpose to M4Carbine.net as I can almost guarantee that no person involved directly, on either side, is going to give you their unadulterated version, in a manner that will satisfy every one.

[montanadave]

I've read the deleted thread. To the uninformed layperson, the drama seemed much ado about nothing.

Regrettable that the forum should lose any member who has knowledge to share due to internecine conflicts.

[Ryno12]

I
But I would ask the question, if DocGKR had an agenda, what would be the harm in bringing it to light here now that he is gone? It might put some of Vickers' comments into perspective, and restore my opinion of him. I hold humility in high regard for anyone that has found success in any realm, and that was not apparent in his response.

I also watched everything unfold. I don't feel it's fair for anyone to place blame or have any ill feelings toward any of the individuals involved. Not knowing all the facts, which are none of anyone's business anyway, how can anybody form an opinion based off the fragment that was shown to the public? That's not right & it should should be something that is kept to one's self. I maintain the utmost respect for the individuals I saw involved & I appreciate the STAFF for allowing this thread to remain open for discussion.

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[Ryno12]

Regrettable that the forum should lose any member who has knowledge to share due to internecine conflicts.

You're right Dave. In the end, we all lose.


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[TriumphRat675]

I've read the deleted thread. To the uninformed layperson, the drama seemed much ado about nothing.

Regrettable that the forum should lose any member who has knowledge to share due to internecine conflicts.

Unfortunate that it happened once; more unfortunate that it is not the first time. It diminishes the community.

[DreadPirateMoyer]

Shivan/AC,

If you don't mind me asking, were there any other consequences for those involved (outside of Doc, that is)? From my perspective at the time (wait for it...), it reeked of unjustified paranoia, favoritism, groupthink, and malicious conspiracy amongst the M4C staff and moderators, and I wasn't alone. It made me regret the site sponsorship I picked up last month and had me rethinking the locales I frequent within the online firearms community. I see now that the incident was only between a few individuals and that I was wrong in my assumptions (...there we go.). I think it would be unfortunate, however, if other parties involved weren't also given some sort of reprimand for what occurred, because otherwise, the favoritism and conspiracy that appeared to be the case previously would continue to appear to be true. The damage this tussle caused to M4C's reputation is pretty large, and a continuation of what it appeared to be publicly (conspiracy, groupthink) would do even further damage, I think. I seriously mean that with all humility and constructive intent.

And on that note, to those who were involved, I say this with all humility and constructive intent as well: please help the firearms community somehow understand what happened. There are a lot of unanswered questions, and as of this time, it looks like a very innocent DocGKR was thrown under the bus and lynched for what was a glowingly-positive review of a Hackathorn pistol class sprinkled with a few bits of constructive criticism throughout. After that AAR, I was amped to take a class with Ken. However, after what transpired and with no other information to go off of, a class with any Alias instructor has fallen to the absolute bottom of my list, and the list of carbine instructors I'd like to learn from is now less one person whom I think came off in this incident very, very poorly. I think it would behoove all of you to have an open discussion with the firearms community at large about what happened (though probably not on here?), because not only was M4C's reputation hurt very badly in this, but so was yours. Again, with all humility and constructive intent. I'm not trying to take shots here.

Overall, this incident looked like a bunch of people using their status, power, and numbers to abuse an innocent, popular, and immensely helpful member of the firearms community. It dramatically injured the reputations of all those involved sans DocGKR, and I don't think this will ever blow over without elucidation.

Unfortunately for all of us, though, we (the firearms community) were the biggest losers here. It sucks.

[DreadPirateMoyer]

I also watched everything unfold. I don't feel it's fair for anyone to place blame or have any ill feelings toward any of the individuals involved. Not knowing all the facts, which are none of anyone's business anyway, how can anybody form an opinion based off the fragment that was shown to the public? That's not right & it should should be something that is kept to one's self. I maintain the utmost respect for the individuals I saw involved & I appreciate the STAFF for allowing this thread to remain open for discussion.

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The only problem with that is, by making this public (whatever "this" is), it became everyone's business, especially considering it was between public figures.

And you're right, this is absolutely a case based upon a lack of totality of facts. The only problem is, the only facts we are then left with paint some parties in a terrible light and others as victims. Prior to this, Doc and LAV were my favorite people in the community. Based on what we know, Doc is really the only one to come away from this unscathed. Until we know more, that's how it will continue to appear to most.

[9mmsteve]

The entire issue feels like a Democratic Party Press Conference.

[JHC]

This is the nature of this industry, and far truer than most of us would expect.

I've been together with people in this industry, interacting amicably, only to find out later, from both sides, that they despise each other.

We all have such common interests and believe in so many similar causes that I think it's tragically humorous, to be honest.

I'm not too impressed by this episode but I'm damned impressed with your candor on this thread. I don't have the whole story; maybe parts of it. But I can't imagine anyone moderating this discussion much better than you have considering the circumstances and what you have to work with. Good luck.