Train with a Steel 5" 9mm, carry an aluminum 4" .45?

[rhino]

Another option would be to get a 1911 in .38 Super or 9x23mm for carry. You could either have a matched 9mm, or just have a 9mm barrel fit to the other gun for when you want to shoot less expensive ammo.

While it can be challenge to get some 1911s in 9mm to function all the time, the extra length of the super and the 9x23 make them inherently more reliable.

[ra2bach]

If you intend to carry a 4" pistol, why not practice with one? it would seem the reduced sight radius and increased recoil from a shorter barrel (in the 9MM) would more closely approximate the carry .45.

and I'd have both guns in aluminum frame if I could, you would get the benefit of being able to use your 9MM as a primary (or even back-up) gun if for whatever reason, you should desire, no?...

[bullitt5172]

Most of you are over-thinking this whole issue. I'll bet most of you train with a fullsize weapon and carry the compact version. That will make about as much difference in recoil etc as switching between calibers. 9mm 1911's still have decent recoil, not as much as an aluminum .45 obviously, but they are not "non-existant" as some would say. We are not comparing a .22 to a 500 S&W.

Trigger time is just that, shooting and training with the same platform is the best you can do if you don't want to carry the same caliber you train with. If you train with a 9mm, carry a 45 and have issues with the caliber change you need to shoot/train more.

I say your on the right track. Though I see no issue with carrying a 9mm for SD, if your looking at the .45 for carry your going to benefit with the 9mm training gun as you can shoot more for the same amount of money. Shooting 10k of 9mm is much better than shooting 5k of .45acp if you have a budget.

[trio]

just FYI Guns and Ammo Warehouse in Manassas, VA has a Wilson CQB Commander Model I believe w/ the Officer's frame in 9mm....

[ra2bach]

Most of you are over-thinking this whole issue. I'll bet most of you train with a fullsize weapon and carry the compact version. That will make about as much difference in recoil etc as switching between calibers. 9mm 1911's still have decent recoil, not as much as an aluminum .45 obviously, but they are not "non-existant" as some would say. We are not comparing a .22 to a 500 S&W.

Trigger time is just that, shooting and training with the same platform is the best you can do if you don't want to carry the same caliber you train with. If you train with a 9mm, carry a 45 and have issues with the caliber change you need to shoot/train more.

I say your on the right track. Though I see no issue with carrying a 9mm for SD, if your looking at the .45 for carry your going to benefit with the 9mm training gun as you can shoot more for the same amount of money. Shooting 10k of 9mm is much better than shooting 5k of .45acp if you have a budget.

this may be a bit of heresy, but you bring up a good point - and that is, how much of what we do in "training" is going to correlate to how what we do when and if the balloon goes up?

I have always thought that because of the adrenaline, fear, shock, or what have you, that the difference between the two situations would be about as different as reading a manual about driving a car and suddenly being strapped behind the wheel of a top-fuel dragster as it launches off the line.

I know there are the "train with what you carry" folks, but personally I don't believe anyone is going to be calm enough to discern the difference in recoil, or gun weight, or even, and this is where my heresy begins, the action type (SA, SA/DA, DAO) for it to be any kind of critical issue.

in fact, we constantly see cases where people have trained in one type of shooting technique, but when they have to draw their gun and defend themselves, we see the "techniques" go straight out the window with people reverting to the crouched down, hunched over posture, with the gun held directly out in front, thrust as far away from the body as possible. instead of the nicely controlled pairs and then assessment, then a failure-to-stop shot if needed, we see these horrified people frantically row the trigger till the slide locks.

this is your fear and survival instincts taking over and they are about as able to be simulated in training as being able to bowl a perfect game by watching pro bowlers on TV.

that being said, I don't believe it matters at all what caliber, or gun weight, or even action type you use. I believe the simplest ( and safest) type of gun you can carry in whatever caliber you personally are comfortable with, is the best gun to have in your holster for that worst case scenario.

there, I said it....

[ToddG]

Kinda sorta but not completely.

Under stress, most people tend to shoot at a cadence set by feel rather than sight. As such, if your "cadence" has been trained to be faster than you can get good hits with your carry gun, there's a chance your accuracy will suffer even more than normal under stress. This won't much matter at close ranges but we can't choose the range of a fight.

I definitely disagree about the trigger action thing, though. A lot of it will depend on what you're used to compared to what you're shooting at the moment of truth, but there are certainly combinations which won't work well. The most obvious is someone used to shooting, say, a Glock and then drawing a 1911 under stress. Would you disagree that there's a higher likelihood of fumbling or forgetting the thumb safety?

You don't need life-or-death stress to demonstrate this. Put a little stress on people during a battlefield pickup drill and you'll see it.

I remember years ago being at a match shooting a Beretta I'd just converted from DAO to DA/SA. No problems on the first couple of stages but then we had a "bump" stage ... you were in a fairly small waist-high box and an RO was standing next to and just behind you, bumping into you as you shot. Under that (relatively minor) stress, my finger was waiting for the trigger to move all the way forward before I could fire another round ... which it wasn't going to do, because it stopped at the SA reset point. I tapped, racked, my finger went back to where I expected the trigger to be ... still no good ... tap, rack ... still no good ... lock, rip, work, tap, rack ... still no good ... stare at the gun ... see the safety lever on the slide, remember "oh yeah it's DA/SA" ... get laughed at for weeks by friends ...

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying that someone carrying a .45 Commander is going to die in a hail of bullets because he normally practices with a 5" 9mm. But the farther away your carry gear gets from your training, the harder things will be when under stress you default to that training.

[SIMPLYDYNAMIC]

Rob,

The title of your thread is train 9mm and carry 45? does this mean you will predominantly more proficient with the less recoil, longer sight radius 9mm then the actual do the deed gun? If so then you know my thoughts on consistency there...

However, like Todd said earlier using both systems for race and carry is fine... as long as you are equally proficient and consistent with both systems or more so with the carry...since your life does depend on it...lol

I know why (from our course) why you are contemplating this and I know you want comfort because of the carry and recoil issues... however I think you might want to weigh the balance between comfort and practicality for your situation. I think one of the biggest issues with shooters is that they confuse "easy" or "comfortable" with effectiveness, I catch myself doing it all the time just have to think what is most practical. and in this situation I would suggest get both guns, just don't let one get more comfortable then the other...

Hope all is well (hows BAD doing?)

[ra2bach]

Kinda sorta but not completely.

Under stress, most people tend to shoot at a cadence set by feel rather than sight. As such, if your "cadence" has been trained to be faster than you can get good hits with your carry gun, there's a chance your accuracy will suffer even more than normal under stress. This won't much matter at close ranges but we can't choose the range of a fight.

I definitely disagree about the trigger action thing, though. A lot of it will depend on what you're used to compared to what you're shooting at the moment of truth, but there are certainly combinations which won't work well. The most obvious is someone used to shooting, say, a Glock and then drawing a 1911 under stress. Would you disagree that there's a higher likelihood of fumbling or forgetting the thumb safety?

You don't need life-or-death stress to demonstrate this. Put a little stress on people during a battlefield pickup drill and you'll see it.

I remember years ago being at a match shooting a Beretta I'd just converted from DAO to DA/SA. No problems on the first couple of stages but then we had a "bump" stage ... you were in a fairly small waist-high box and an RO was standing next to and just behind you, bumping into you as you shot. Under that (relatively minor) stress, my finger was waiting for the trigger to move all the way forward before I could fire another round ... which it wasn't going to do, because it stopped at the SA reset point. I tapped, racked, my finger went back to where I expected the trigger to be ... still no good ... tap, rack ... still no good ... lock, rip, work, tap, rack ... still no good ... stare at the gun ... see the safety lever on the slide, remember "oh yeah it's DA/SA" ... get laughed at for weeks by friends ...

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying that someone carrying a .45 Commander is going to die in a hail of bullets because he normally practices with a 5" 9mm. But the farther away your carry gear gets from your training, the harder things will be when under stress you default to that training.

bump stage? haha, that was funny. but I'm not going to laugh - I definitely know my place in the food chain

but I was bringing up another point and I thinks my comments were actually heading in the same direction you took . I've seen it a lot with the seemingly little stress brought on by competition, where even a "master" with 30,000 rnds. per year under his belt, when faced with an unfamiliar stage, has brought out his 1911 and squeezed down hard to no effect, then stared at his gun and sheepishly released the safety and then got in the game. right then and there, I said to myself, "self, if this master can crunch a safety in the heat of the moment, then you, being a yokel, can surely do the same" and I pledged henceforth, not to carry a 1911 style CCW.

I've seen several shooters do this, of all levels of experience and it, more than anything, has influenced me that I don't want any kind of manual safety or additional step between me and bang - the simplest and safest is, IMO, the best way to go, and that means, to me a DA/SA or DAO.

I know there are all the guys that are going to say it's just a matter of training but I don't think you can train a pure load of adrenaline dumped into your bloodstream.

fer instance, I'm OK around snakes. if I see them first and I have time to identify and get rational about them I'm fine and can handle them and not get emotional about it. but if I'm walking along and one suddenly appears near my feet, I'm worse than a 12 year old girl. (except I'm much bigger and much uglier...)

same scenario with gunfighting, IMO, and that is also why I tend to agree with those that classify handguns into "defensive" and "offensive".

I've already said what I want in a defensive gun but for an offensive handgun - one that I would pick up and carry into a known situation like a house entry, etc. - I would probably take with a single action with manual safety (1911 style) as that is what I shoot best. knowing that I am expecting to use it in the next few moments, it would be in my hand and I would already have a rational plan at the front of my consciousness. sometimes when we're surprised, all the preparation in the world gets forgotten in the excitement.

[Robb Jensen]

I've seen it a lot with the seemingly little stress brought on by competition, where even a "master" with 30,000 rnds. per year under his belt, when faced with an unfamiliar stage, has brought out his 1911 and squeezed down hard to no effect, then stared at his gun and sheepishly released the safety and then got in the game.

I've seen this too which is why I 'dry practice' as well as 'dry fire' and also practice live fire.

I see a lot of people who are incredible shooters who don't practice out of the holster at all.

[ToddG]

ra2bach -- No argument from me! I've seen exactly what you're talking about with the 1911 safety, most often when a competitor or student isn't drawing from a holster. For example, it's common in the games for people to have to get their pistols from a closed drawer. Since most people don't practice coming out of a drawer, the incidence of mistakes goes up. My wife (who has about the same level of firearms training and regular practice as your typical disinterested LEO) used to do this all the time with her BHP.

To be fair to the 1911 carriers, I think this problem can almost be completely eliminated with a proper grip that has the thumb wresting on the safety lever at all times (except at the moment you're snicking the safety to the ON position). Then, safety on or off, when you press the gun out and your thumb moves into its normal position the safety will almost certainly disengage. But a surprising number of people don't ride the safety when it's in the ON position.