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Thread: A definitive article that says it all?

  1. #21
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    What others have said here on the forum is true: "People buy a certain brand and then come here looking for confirmation as to their purchase", or something along those lines. You can't help those who will not listen.

    On another note (I don't post this to cause trouble. If it does please delete) it seemed at one time some folks on the forum were overly obsessed with the so called "Chart". Is this true?

  2. #22
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    Some people are just not worth arguing with and attempting to convince them of anything is a huge waste of effort. There are those who need to learn the hard way or via their own trial and error no matter the path of those who came before them. Learning by doing things the hard way is not necessarily a bad thing but there are two distinct types. Those attempting to come to an independent conclusion no matter the outcome and they are not necessarily emotionally invested either way. The next is the type that are emotionally tied to the outcome and attempt to sway things to match their desired result, or to justify their own decisions / purchases.

    There is a reason that these individuals, groups or certain forums go down in flames, no matter what information, background or reasonability you try to interject. Bottom line is "they don't know, what they don't know" and infect others who know even less. Yes it seems noble to attempt to educate them, but sometimes you just need to cut out the cancer and move on to those who are open to help. Eventually the cancer kills the host, group or forum and in a sense that solves the issue.

  3. #23
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    Does anyone on this site have the funds to run their own independent test? It would be real expensive. Ideally, the tester would walk into a local gun shop and buy an off the shelf carbine for testing. Once one sample from each of the well known manufacturers was in hand, the tester could fire 20,000 rounds through each carbine and let the chips fall where they may. Once a carbine develops a problem that requires tools to fix, it is out of the running.

    This would be no different than any other contest. The guy who does the most pushups, runs the fastest 5 miles or knocks the other guy out wins. It would put a lot of the arguments to rest.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by T2C View Post
    Does anyone on this site have the funds to run their own independent test? It would be real expensive. Ideally, the tester would walk into a local gun shop and buy an off the shelf carbine for testing. Once one sample from each of the well known manufacturers was in hand, the tester could fire 20,000 rounds through each carbine and let the chips fall where they may. Once a carbine develops a problem that requires tools to fix, it is out of the running.

    This would be no different than any other contest. The guy who does the most pushups, runs the fastest 5 miles or knocks the other guy out wins. It would put a lot of the arguments to rest.
    But, for it to be a legit representative sample of each manufacturer, you'd need to test more than one, making it far more expensive. I'd think a minimum of 3 per manufacturer, but that's a WAG on my part.

    Larger the n number the greater confidence in the results as a rule, but not sure how that gets applied to testing of firearms per se statistically speaking.
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  5. #25
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    I see people arguing brand differences far more than I see them giving reports on guns that have been worn out from use. This isn't the first time the internet has put the cart before the horse though.

    If you are looking at a model of gun you will find far better information by reading what the actual owners of it have written than you will be asking randomly what people think about it. See what they say initially and see what they say after years of ownership or certain round counts.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    Some people are just not worth arguing with and attempting to convince them of anything is a huge waste of effort. There are those who need to learn the hard way or via their own trial and error no matter the path of those who came before them. Learning by doing things the hard way is not necessarily a bad thing but there are two distinct types. Those attempting to come to an independent conclusion no matter the outcome and they are not necessarily emotionally invested either way. The next is the type that are emotionally tied to the outcome and attempt to sway things to match their desired result, or to justify their own decisions / purchases.

    There is a reason that these individuals, groups or certain forums go down in flames, no matter what information, background or reasonability you try to interject. Bottom line is "they don't know, what they don't know" and infect others who know even less. Yes it seems noble to attempt to educate them, but sometimes you just need to cut out the cancer and move on to those who are open to help. Eventually the cancer kills the host, group or forum and in a sense that solves the issue.
    The funny thing is this is on a corvette forum where we discuss car specs all the time. When I ask these guys that want to say a sub par AR is just as good as top AR if they would buy a Corvette with pistons that wouldn't last on a track day but are good enough for the street they say hell no. It's funny how they demand quality they will never use in one product but not another.
    Todd
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWcityguy2 View Post
    I see people arguing brand differences far more than I see them giving reports on guns that have been worn out from use. This isn't the first time the internet has put the cart before the horse though.

    If you are looking at a model of gun you will find far better information by reading what the actual owners of it have written than you will be asking randomly what people think about it. See what they say initially and see what they say after years of ownership or certain round counts.
    I'd agree with this.

    Colt, BCM, DPMS, and every other brand, are all man made and are prone to failure. Simple as that.

    One point that is always brought up, for example, Windham Weaponry doesn't stake the castle nut. Good, it made it easier for me to replace the stock and tube for a stock that I wanted to use. "Oh, but Colt does." Yeah.......and I see A LOT of Colt stock takeoffs for sale also.

    Windham "batch" tests their bolts and barrels. Colt does each. So what. Me and every other average consumer isn't going to battle with them either. Every firearm I've ever bought for market value at the time of purchase has seen less than 1000 rounds. The government requires a paper trail on every thing they buy, (which makes me wonder why each component of a Colt rifle isn't marked with a s/n or lot number. (that makes me wonder why).

    Would I hesitate to grab my Windham if shtf? No. Has it met the same standards as Colt for the government to buy one? I don't know and don't care considering the government buys from the lowest bidder and that the lowest bidder subcontracts out to the lowest bidder for components. Not to mention, I've yet to see a civilian sold Colt come with papers showing that the government approved that particular carbine.

    On a side note, Colt needs to move and dump the UAW. Cant tell me that the same union that supports this potus and his efforts to dis-arm American citizens actually give more of a shit about building rifles than automobiles.
    Last edited by xwarp; 08-04-13 at 15:25.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by xwarp View Post
    I'd agree with this.

    Colt, BCM, DPMS, and every other brand, are all man made and are prone to failure. Simple as that.

    One point that is always brought up, for example, Windham Weaponry doesn't stake the castle nut. Good, it made it easier for me to replace the stock and tube for a stock that I wanted to use. "Oh, but Colt does." Yeah.......and I see A LOT of Colt stock takeoffs for sale also.

    Windham "batch" tests their bolts and barrels. Colt does each. So what. Me and every other average consumer isn't going to battle with them either. Every firearm I've ever bought for market value at the time of purchase has seen less than 1000 rounds. The government requires a paper trail on every thing they buy, (which makes me wonder why each component of a Colt rifle isn't marked with a s/n or lot number. (that makes me wonder why).

    Would I hesitate to grab my Windham if shtf? No. Has it met the same standards as Colt for the government to buy one? I don't know and don't care considering the government buys from the lowest bidder and that the lowest bidder subcontracts out to the lowest bidder for components. Not to mention, I've yet to see a civilian sold Colt come with papers showing that the government approved that particular carbine.

    On a side note, Colt needs to move and dump the UAW. Cant tell me that the same union that supports this potus and his efforts to dis-arm American citizens actually give more of a shit about building rifles than automobiles.

    In my last post I made reference to the "lowest bidder" mentality. I have firsthand knowledge that this is not how the military procures.

    You are exactly the person that this thread is about.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by dash1 View Post
    In my last post I made reference to the "lowest bidder" mentality. I have firsthand knowledge that this is not how the military procures.

    You are exactly the person that this thread is about.
    Really? You mean defense contractors actually don't care about profit margins and their stock holders?

    New one on me.

    ETA: Since you have stated in your last post that you directly target those with the "lowest bidder" mentality, then you'd be happy to oblige me with a list of all the subcontractors that supply components to colt.
    Last edited by xwarp; 08-04-13 at 15:35.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by xwarp View Post
    I'd agree with this.

    Colt, BCM, DPMS, and every other brand, are all man made and are prone to failure. Simple as that.

    One point that is always brought up, for example, Windham Weaponry doesn't stake the castle nut. Good, it made it easier for me to replace the stock and tube for a stock that I wanted to use. "Oh, but Colt does." Yeah.......and I see A LOT of Colt stock takeoffs for sale also.

    Windham "batch" tests their bolts and barrels. Colt does each. So what. Me and every other average consumer isn't going to battle with them either. Every firearm I've ever bought for market value at the time of purchase has seen less than 1000 rounds. The government requires a paper trail on every thing they buy, (which makes me wonder why each component of a Colt rifle isn't marked with a s/n or lot number. (that makes me wonder why).

    Would I hesitate to grab my Windham if shtf? No. Has it met the same standards as Colt for the government to buy one? I don't know and don't care considering the government buys from the lowest bidder and that the lowest bidder subcontracts out to the lowest bidder for components. Not to mention, I've yet to see a civilian sold Colt come with papers showing that the government approved that particular carbine.

    On a side note, Colt needs to move and dump the UAW. Cant tell me that the same union that supports this potus and his efforts to dis-arm American citizens actually give more of a shit about building rifles than automobiles.
    I am glad that my AR or Colt does not come with papers truthfully, but my good friend who is a Marine told me about the time he was pinned down with his squad and his Colt got him out of a shit storm many rounds were fired and the Colt ran flawless, that's piece of mind and I will take that over X that is known by people who have put a lot more than me down range to be a piece of shit. The last thing I want to think about or have happen is when SHTF is that I am left with brand X because I wanted to save 200$ Piece of mind is priceless IMO

    Anything can break or jam, I am not denying that but if I have the opportunity to give myself a better chance or a battle proven option, Military or weekend worrier I am going with something proven to improve that chance
    Last edited by Blak1508; 08-04-13 at 15:40.


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