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Thread: A definitive article that says it all?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by T2C View Post
    Does anyone on this site have the funds to run their own independent test? It would be real expensive. Ideally, the tester would walk into a local gun shop and buy an off the shelf carbine for testing. Once one sample from each of the well known manufacturers was in hand, the tester could fire 20,000 rounds through each carbine and let the chips fall where they may. Once a carbine develops a problem that requires tools to fix, it is out of the running.

    This would be no different than any other contest. The guy who does the most pushups, runs the fastest 5 miles or knocks the other guy out wins. It would put a lot of the arguments to rest.
    If I ever hit the lottery for a couple hundred million I would likely start something like this among other tests, pistols, ammo, ect, ect. Figure I would need something to keep me busy and why not try to educate people while I am at it.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by xwarp View Post
    Really? You mean defense contractors actually don't care about profit margins and their stock holders?

    New one on me.

    ETA: Since you have stated in your last post that you directly target those with the "lowest bidder" mentality, then you'd be happy to oblige me with a list of all the subcontractors that supply components to colt.
    Of course corporations care about their bottom line, it would be naive to think otherwise. Once contracts are bid the contractor must meet the quality (TDP) that was contracted. I've seen it more than a few times where contractors failed to meet the standard and then had to spend their own money to bring the product up to standard. A lot more thought goes into procurement than just saving money.

    I will not oblige you with a list. Do your own research.

  3. #33
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by ennbeegunny15 View Post
    i used to try and steer them this way, but i figure why have them muck up this site.
    That's why I tell them to come here: NOT to post, but to, "READ!"
    - Either you're part of the problem or you're part of the solution or you're just part of the landscape - Sam (Robert DeNiro) in, "Ronin" -

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by dash1 View Post
    Of course corporations care about their bottom line, it would be naive to think otherwise. Once contracts are bid the contractor must meet the quality (TDP) that was contracted. I've seen it more than a few times where contractors failed to meet the standard and then had to spend their own money to bring the product up to standard. A lot more thought goes into procurement than just saving money.

    I will not oblige you with a list. Do your own research.
    So much for "educating others" huh?

    I've searched, I've not had any luck find info that definitively shows for fact what companies subcontract parts for Colt, so I doubt you know.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blak1508 View Post
    Anything can break or jam, I am not denying that but if I have the opportunity to give myself a better chance or a battle proven option, Military or weekend worrier I am going with something proven to improve that chance
    Me, I am a "weekend worrier." My warrior days are far behind me.

    Like all advice people just want to be told what they want to hear. When people ask me, my first questions is "what do you want to do with it?" Based on that I will ask their price range and direct them from there.

    I wish there was a definitive article, though.

  6. #36
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    For me, the most persuasive arguments to go with one manufacturer over another come from those that run firearms classes and those that must know the platform for a living. An individual may see a sample size of one or two firearms (small sample size), those teaching classes and working everyday with the AR will see much larger sample sizes. For me to ignore the advice from someone that makes their money knowing how these guns are put together and providing advice to paying customers is just stupid.

    There is hope. My LGS has started stocking Colt and DD carbines and more parts from manufacturers that produce quality items.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
    For me, the most persuasive arguments to go with one manufacturer over another come from those that run firearms classes and those that must know the platform for a living. An individual may see a sample size of one or two firearms (small sample size), those teaching classes and working everyday with the AR will see much larger sample sizes. For me to ignore the advice from someone that makes their money knowing how these guns are put together and providing advice to paying customers is just stupid.

    There is hope. My LGS has started stocking Colt and DD carbines and more parts from manufacturers that produce quality items.
    I think that would be the best.

  8. #38
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    As with anything larger sample sizes decrease amount of deviation in results. Also taking a small fixed number of weapons of each manufacturer is not going to give nearly as accurate of results. Testing a percentage would be more ideal in terms of findings as well as testing standards. Anyone can get away with 2 or 3 or a handful of rifles that run well.

    Looking at length of ownership and round counts can be deceiving. How many rounds and at what rates of fire over fixed intervals would be more telling. I could own 2 weapons for 5 years with 5000 rounds through each weapon. For rifle A, I could fire 5000 rounds spread evenly over the 5 years never shooting at a pace that would induce high levels of heat to tax the system. Rifle B could fire 5000 rounds very quickly in 3 or 4 training courses in a matter of a few weeks and just sit for the remainder of the 5 years. Rifle B would see more wear and tear than rifle A even though I had both for 5 years and fired the same round count through them. Very inaccurate method to compare both rifles.

    As mentioned in the automotive analogy, since I am also a gear head, I cannot expect to use crappy parts in a car that sees the drag strip and only has 100 miles on the odometer, 1/4 mile at a time and expect it to last as long then if I use quality parts and build process. Then again if I only drive my kids to school everyday and get groceries with my car, my Neon will probably be just as well suited as my Mercedes and do it at a fraction of the cost.

    Oh and I don't own a Neon or a Mercedes.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    As with anything larger sample sizes decrease amount of deviation in results. Also taking a small fixed number of weapons of each manufacturer is not going to give nearly as accurate of results. Testing a percentage would be more ideal in terms of findings as well as testing standards. Anyone can get away with 2 or 3 or a handful of rifles that run well.
    Performing laboratory testing for a living, I have seen first hand how a small sample size can give results that don't paint a complete picture. For the work I do, a minimum of three replicates tested in triplicate is needed, and five replicates tested in triplicate gives a much better indication of the product's true performance.
    Last edited by Agnostic; 08-04-13 at 18:02. Reason: Clarification

  10. #40
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    You have no idea what you are talking about. Using the unstaked castle nut as some kind of "positive" attribute is ridiculous.

    The shortcomings with WW, BM, DPMS, etc... has all been SPELLED OUT numerous times before. Don't expect us to spoon feed it to you.

    You also don't know what you are talking about in regards to bidding/lowest bidders and meeting the requirements that are specified.

    The union thing has ZERO relevance and is nothing more than a feeble attempt to argue without merits.

    Quote Originally Posted by xwarp View Post
    I'd agree with this.

    Colt, BCM, DPMS, and every other brand, are all man made and are prone to failure. Simple as that.

    One point that is always brought up, for example, Windham Weaponry doesn't stake the castle nut. Good, it made it easier for me to replace the stock and tube for a stock that I wanted to use. "Oh, but Colt does." Yeah.......and I see A LOT of Colt stock takeoffs for sale also.

    Windham "batch" tests their bolts and barrels. Colt does each. So what. Me and every other average consumer isn't going to battle with them either. Every firearm I've ever bought for market value at the time of purchase has seen less than 1000 rounds. The government requires a paper trail on every thing they buy, (which makes me wonder why each component of a Colt rifle isn't marked with a s/n or lot number. (that makes me wonder why).

    Would I hesitate to grab my Windham if shtf? No. Has it met the same standards as Colt for the government to buy one? I don't know and don't care considering the government buys from the lowest bidder and that the lowest bidder subcontracts out to the lowest bidder for components. Not to mention, I've yet to see a civilian sold Colt come with papers showing that the government approved that particular carbine.

    On a side note, Colt needs to move and dump the UAW. Cant tell me that the same union that supports this potus and his efforts to dis-arm American citizens actually give more of a shit about building rifles than automobiles.



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