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Thread: Thinking about building a SPR/MK12 rifle.

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurretGunner View Post
    Trident,

    Ive owned them ALL with the exception of GDI. I stand by my statement, They will all exibit POI shift.......some more than others. I have found Bobro to have the Least, and from people I respect, they claim that GDI is also on par with Bobro. With that being said, I still don't run QD on any precision rigs. Badger 1 peice or KAC 1 Piece. We can debate the merits and designs of each QD, but thats for another thread. Anyone serious about LR and precision does not use a QD mount, unless they HAVE to. Acogs, 1-4/6x, Elcans and RDS aren't precision.

    I have also run the SOPMOD for the last 10 years on just about all of my AR's. They are on my MK12, .308 AR's and on my KAC guns. I find it to give the best cheek weld and the most comfortable outside of the PRS (which is a pig). It has a nice flat surface that can be built up if need be and plenty of surface area to work with.

    Please explain to me how the Vortex is so inferior to the NXS? Ill give nightforce has a better zero stop and argueably a slight edge in the reliability/durrability department. The Glass in the Vortex is AS good if not better than NF and the MIL reticle is IMO, a better one than the 10 or whatever NF offers. It also has the best, no questions asked warranty in the optics world. NF will dick around with warrantee work, Vortex will have you a replacement by the end of the week.
    Have you even shot the 2.5-10x32 Vortex? Its one hell of an optic. Also, who the hell wants a SFP scope in a precision/dmr/sniper role? That ship sailed 10 years ago. The 2.5-10x24 was one hell of a scope for it's size, but like idiots, NF decided to pull that from consumer market. They can go **** themselves with their overpriced, old technolgy. Their old prices were a good value, Now there is better for less (Bushnell HDMR/G2DMR, New Leupy, Razor HD, SWFA 5-20,ect) For the price of a F1 or their latest offering I can get a Khales or S&B.......its not even a choice.
    I have to disagree once again.

    The 3-15 F1 is roughly 2.5K where as the S&B 3-12 is $3.5K. The S&B WILL have better glass, but it not the same price.

    Kahles does not offer the equivalent of the K624i in a lower power model, not that I am aware of.

    Steiner and Premier are also awesome scopes and have better glass than the NF F1 but are still $500 more than the F1 for their 3-15ish offerings.

    The NF BEAST costs as much as the S&B PM2 5-25 and is reported to have the same/similar quality glass.

    Vortex make good optics for sure, but they are not as reliable as NF.

    A SFP scope in a lower power is perfectly serviceable and is not "old tech." Would I want a SFP scope in the 5-25 range? No, I don't believe so. But in the 2.5-10 or 3-15 range the reticle may be unusable for milling in the lower power range on a FFP scope anyway. I say "may" because I have not had the chance to spend time behind a "low" powered FFP scope with a Mil-Dot or similar mil based reticle, I have only seen the 5-25 type guys because that is what I am in the market for now.
    ..It was you to me who taught
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurretGunner View Post
    There is nothing wrong with a Douglas or Noveskee barrel. They are good shooters. But they are not Kriegers, Bartlien, ect. There is a reason those tubes sell for $$$ and guys who shoot LR use them . For a mK12 shooting blue box 75/77GR, I don't think you will notice much of a difference.

    The Mod 0/1's also used ARMS #22 rings, does that mean they are the best product for that rifle? The same can be argued for any componet. Unless your building a clone, there is no reason to not use better parts, and that includes the barrel. WOA is every bit the shooter that the Douglas or CLE is, at half the price. It is also already profiled for the Ops inc brake, if you go down that rabbit hole.

    Which 2.5-10 are u talking about? There are 3, and none of them are FFP. Once you go FFP and Mil/Mil you never go back.
    No one is saying they are the best barrels, just saying they are not crap as, I believe, your "not top tier" comment alluded to.

    I have the x32 because I got an awesome deal on it here. Yes, there are the x20, x32 and x42 now. I see the x20's up for sale on the Hide on the regular basis, so its not the end of the world to snag one.

    Though I do not have a Douglass barreled rifle I am sure it can produce sub MOA accuracy. As would the Krieger et al's but I doubt you would see a drastic difference in accuracy between the two with any ammo. It is still a 5.56 AR platform. Maybe one is .75moa with the other being .5moa, but its not like comparing a 3moa barrel to a .5moa one.

    Going back to your knock on some optic mounts, I have LaRue mounts on my "SPR" and RDS equipped carbines. They have been on and off numerous times for cleaning and not one has displayed a determinable POI shift. Survey of 1 on I know, but just my experience, which is why I will continue to use LaRue QD mounts. If I use a non QD mount, I imagine that I would use SPUHR.
    ..It was you to me who taught
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex V View Post
    I have to disagree once again.

    The 3-15 F1 is roughly 2.5K where as the S&B 3-12 is $3.5K. The S&B WILL have better glass, but it not the same price.

    Kahles does not offer the equivalent of the K624i in a lower power model, not that I am aware of.

    Steiner and Premier are also awesome scopes and have better glass than the NF F1 but are still $500 more than the F1 for their 3-15ish offerings.

    The NF BEAST costs as much as the S&B PM2 5-25 and is reported to have the same/similar quality glass.

    Vortex make good optics for sure, but they are not as reliable as NF.

    A SFP scope in a lower power is perfectly serviceable and is not "old tech." Would I want a SFP scope in the 5-25 range? No, I don't believe so. But in the 2.5-10 or 3-15 range the reticle may be unusable for milling in the lower power range on a FFP scope anyway. I say "may" because I have not had the chance to spend time behind a "low" powered FFP scope with a Mil-Dot or similar mil based reticle, I have only seen the 5-25 type guys because that is what I am in the market for now.
    The Bushnell is a better scope than the F1, at a much lower price. It has better features, good (not fantastic) glass, tracks well, Fantastic Reticle in the G2 (and Horus if thats your thing), and good size. The Razor(5-20) and the Stiener(3-12 AND 4-16) are also better optics at a cheaper price. NF glass is not the greatest.

    There is a reason no one in/almost no one in the PRS shoots nightforce glass. You will see mostly S&B and Premier with some Bushy's, Khales, and a good amount of Razors. NF has IMO, priced them selves out of a market segment and price range they use to dominate.

    A 624I can be found in the $2500 range, and is a vastly superior scope to the F1.

    For a 1-4 SFP is acceptable as you are most likley only using it on 1x or 4x. There is a reason all the top 1-6/6.5/8 optics are FFP.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex V View Post
    No one is saying they are the best barrels, just saying they are not crap as, I believe, your "not top tier" comment alluded to.

    I have the x32 because I got an awesome deal on it here. Yes, there are the x20, x32 and x42 now. I see the x20's up for sale on the Hide on the regular basis, so its not the end of the world to snag one.

    Though I do not have a Douglass barreled rifle I am sure it can produce sub MOA accuracy. As would the Krieger et al's but I doubt you would see a drastic difference in accuracy between the two with any ammo. It is still a 5.56 AR platform. Maybe one is .75moa with the other being .5moa, but its not like comparing a 3moa barrel to a .5moa one.

    Going back to your knock on some optic mounts, I have LaRue mounts on my "SPR" and RDS equipped carbines. They have been on and off numerous times for cleaning and not one has displayed a determinable POI shift. Survey of 1 on I know, but just my experience, which is why I will continue to use LaRue QD mounts. If I use a non QD mount, I imagine that I would use SPUHR.
    I never said they were crap. For almost all shooters and for military applications they are fine. But they are still not "top tier" or whatever you want to call it.

    Want to guess what barrels Gap uses in their GAP10? Want to guess what the AMU Highpower team and many other use? Bartlien , and then Krieger. JP barrels shoot too, but I'm not possitive to makes them (wilson or Lija)

    You will not notice POI shift with a RDS or a non precision optic like an ACOG. It is there.

    Out of all the QD mounts, Larue is argubly the worst for a multitude of reasons. Even ADM has a better lockup than Larue's antiquidated design.

    You may not be able to tell the difference, but people shooting for score or running dedicated systems do. Wonder why the MK11/M110,M24, M40,ect don't use QD mounts/rings? Don't you think they would love to be able to switch out optics easy without tools for different missions? KAC can't make their 1 piece fast enough, and its dam near $350. That's why I shoot badger. Everything the KAC is, made by the best mount compnay in the world, and still under $200 for 30/34MM with built in slope.
    Last edited by TurretGunner; 08-21-13 at 18:53.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurretGunner View Post
    Out of all the QD mounts, Larue is argubly the worst for a multitude of reasons. Even ADM has a better lockup than Larue's antiquidated design.

    You may not be able to tell the difference, but people shooting for score or running dedicated systems do. Wonder why the MK11/M110,M24, M40,ect don't use QD mounts/rings? Don't you think they would love to be able to switch out optics easy without tools for different missions? KAC can't make their 1 piece fast enough, and its dam near $350. That's why I shoot badger. Everything the KAC is, made by the best mount compnay in the world, and still under $200 for 30/34MM with built in slope.
    Why is the Laure so bad? I run one on my DDV5 and T-1

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djstorm100 View Post
    Why is the Laure so bad? I run one on my DDV5 and T-1
    Its been beaten to death but Long story short, its an inferior mount/lockup system that will jack up your rails, and needs a tool to adjust it.

    Bobro is a superior mount in almost every way. Ive heard good things about GDI, but no hands on.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurretGunner View Post
    Its been beaten to death but Long story short, its an inferior mount/lockup system that will jack up your rails, and needs a tool to adjust it.

    Bobro is a superior mount in almost every way. Ive heard good things about GDI, but no hands on.
    Ah I did a quick good search but didn't really yield anything worth mentioning. I'll continue the search.

  8. #48
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    BCM has some MK12 uppers in stock

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForTehNguyen View Post
    BCM has some MK12 uppers in stock
    Yes only 2 I do believe.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurretGunner View Post

    You will not notice POI shift with a RDS or a non precision optic like an ACOG. It is there.
    no POI shift on my NF2.5-10 with a LaRue mount. Been on and off at least half a dozen times.

    As for your other points, I don't believe the Bushnell is as good as the NF, but to each his own, we can argue this 'till we are blue in the face.

    I know the Kahles 624i can be had for $2500. I almost bought one with a Mil6 reticle for $2250 on The Hide, I was referring to retail pricing. One can have a NF F1 MLR2 for $1800 as well.
    ..It was you to me who taught
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