I would have bought a built BCM upper of your choice. There is no better built upper on the market that will run hard and last as long. [Colt and Daniel Defense are in the same league]. I like the piston idea but the AR DI works well as is.
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I would have bought a built BCM upper of your choice. There is no better built upper on the market that will run hard and last as long. [Colt and Daniel Defense are in the same league]. I like the piston idea but the AR DI works well as is.
Last edited by SteveS; 08-23-13 at 10:42.
I should have mentioned that I own an AUG as well.There is a reason that very few .mil units select this weapon for use. Clue?
People are commonly "married" to their purchase. Very few can buy something with their hard earned money and also be critical of it. IMHO, the TAVOR beats the AUG, but that is another discussion.Why would any AUG owner(= "true AUG owner") not like their weapon? If an AUG owner likes his weapon, is he still a "true" owner ? I have talked to a few Customs Agents who carried them for over 5 and ten years as a duty weapon and they loved them. In fact i haven't encountered many AUG owners in RL or internet that didn't love their AUG. I didn't even own an AR platform weapon for over 2 years ( sold both of them) after purchasing an AUG. I recently purchased an AR platform when I found a deal I couldn't refuse on a quality built rifle (with an optic included in its price).
Point was ALL firearms break. When comparing an AK to an AR, you also have to list all the shortcomings that the AK brings to the table.As far as "AK's go down as well". Quality AK's go down alot less often than Colt M-4's ( ask any AK armorer). Any gun will will go down eventually. But it simply isnt true that a quality built AK costs any more than a quality M-4 or that it is less reliable. Not as accurate maybe, heavier? sure.
Plus you forgot to mention the three other piston weapon platforms that outperformed the M-4. Look, I like the AR platform enough to have purchased several over the years. I own one now but I am not going to say that they are better in some aspects than a piston rifle when they clearly arent. Piston rifles aren't better than the M-4 in some regards either, it would be disingenuous to suggest that this this true.
A piston that is shoe horned into another design generally never works well as the original design. One of the few examples that it can work well is the 416.
Are their more reliable guns out there than the M4? YA, I think so. Do they bring baggage with them that override their reliability value? Yes. This is why you will continue to see the M4 fielded by Military units for some time to come.
C4
Last edited by C4IGrant; 08-23-13 at 10:45.
After reading the "Filthy 14" article I don't see where lack of maintenance enters the conversation when talking DGI.
True. What people don't realize (especially ones with VERY little time behind the AR15/M16/M4 platform) is that a properly maintained DI gun is VERY reliable. All they know is the horror stories they read of troops complaining about their "unreliable M16/M4" or the redneck neighbor that cannot get his hobby built AR to run.
Truth is that most of the guns issued to our Military are shot out and needed to be melted down (IZguns will be along shortly to give me an AMEN). PM's are also rarely done on the guns. On top of this, the average troop does not lubricate or doesn't lubricate enough.
C4
[QUOTE]Main one? COST, second clue =availability. The M4 is the new AK because they are cheap and easily obtained.. we give'em away ( pretty much equals clue 1 and 2) Same reasons that the AK platform is used around the world. Plus they work
I was openly critical of my AUG's shortcomings and the M-4 virtues . Assuming that I am "married" to my purchases is a bit condescending . For example, As insulting as to assume the worst of you and suggest that you push the the AR platform so hard because that is all you sell and give approval only to the HK piston rifle because you also sell it. I wouldn't suggest that because it is a baseless demeaning claim and you seem to deserve better. I hope I can expect the same level of respect from you even if I disagree with you on some points.People are commonly "married" to their purchase. Very few can buy something with their hard earned money and also be critical of it. IMHO, the TAVOR beats the AUG, but that is another discussion.
I did, I said they may not be as accurate. The are heavier... quality being comparable, what else is there? Maybe ammo selection?Point was ALL firearms break. When comparing an AK to an AR, you also have to list all the shortcomings that the AK brings to the table.
I addressed that pointA piston that is shoe horned into another design generally never works well as the original design. One of the few examples that it can work well is the 416.
I think that logistics play a greater role in the M-4's longevity than reliability. We will use the M-4 because the cost of replacing it outweighs the benefits of replacing it. It is used around the world because our government literally gives them away by the hundreds of thousands.Are their more reliable guns out there than the M4? YA, I think so. Do they bring baggage with them that override their reliability value? Yes. This is why you will continue to see the M4 fielded by Military units for some time to come.
Last edited by signkutter; 08-23-13 at 11:17.
OP, considering all this great discussion on the piston vs "DI" AR reliability, I will say that for an average shooter, the only time I could make my AR malfunction was when I purposely did not lube it after a somewhat high round count- pushing 900 rounds since a light coat of CLP was put on it.
I then but a decent amount of EWL on it, and ran another almost 900 rounds on it through the weekend and it never malfunctioned again.
I am thinking if I had at least the H buffer then, or the Vltor A5 it would go even longer without lube. I do not, however, see why you would want to do that.
Also, just in case: I did not put a tweenkie in my upper, through dirt in it, or swim through the swamp with my AR, nor did I shoot it in a dust storm.
Last edited by Zane1844; 08-23-13 at 11:16.
[QUOTE=signkutter;1728245]Cost is a very important aspect for people AND the Military.
Main one? COST, second clue =availability. Third clue .. we give'em away ( pretty much equals clue 1 and 2) Same reasons that the AK platform is used around the world. Plus they work
The AK is popular because a 10yr old can operate it (simple). And sadly, 10rd olds do use them.
To be honest, anyone that thinks the AUG is a superior choice to a quality built DI gun, IS MARRIED to their purchase. If this shoe does not fit, then don't wear it.I was openly critical of my AUG's shortcomings and the M-4 virtues . Assuming that I am "married" to my purchases is a bit condescending . For example, As insulting as to assume the worst of you and suggest that you push the the AR platform so hard because that is all you sell and give approval only to the HK piston rifle because you also sell it. I wouldn't suggest that because it is a baseless demeaning claim and you seem to deserve better. I hope I can expect the same level of respect from you even if I disagree with you on some points.
I also and have sold Colt Piston, LMT piston, AK's, AUG's, TAVOR's and could have a store FULL of LWRC guns (if I so chose). So your assumption that I do not sell other piston guns is incorrect.
Not really. What the Military has found out is that even the BEST fighting gun currently available (416) is only about 30% better than the M4. When you look at the cost, that 30% simply isn't worth it (which I would agree with).I think that logistics play a greater role in the M-4's longevity than reliability. Our government literally gives them away by the hundreds of thousands
Which countries does the US Govt "GIVE AWAY" M4's and M16's too?
C4
Last edited by C4IGrant; 08-23-13 at 11:22.
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