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Thread: Did I make a bad call on my first build?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    The physics of operation remains the same. If a PIGB (Piston In Gas Block) upper runs on a wider variety of ammo, chances are it's over gassed which explains the harsher recoil. The only time an AR has much trouble running a variety of ammo is when it's tuned to give a softer recoil impulse
    The gas system on my AUG is adjustable. It remains on the low gas setting until I have a malfunction... then it goes to the high setting continue shooting and I dont buy that ammo anymore.... but I can run it if i want. You cant do that with a DI AR. It is either overgassed to run anything ..or it is tuned to run a certain quality of ammo.



    Show me the money. I have several PIGB (non-AR) type rifles and they require just as much maintenance as an AR and sometimes more. All require lube. One advantage to the AR is that since I'm keeping it's piston lubed, it's easier to clean away to carbon build up. With the FAL, there is a constant problem with the gas plug becoming very difficult to remove because of the build up of dry fouling.

    PIGB rifles run no cleaner, nor do they run cooler than an AR with it's piston located in the BCG. Fouling and heat generated by the cartridge on firing remains the same no matter what rifle they are fired in. What's different is where the fouling gets dumped. Whether a rifle has it's piston in the BCG or in the gas block, heat is about the same. One major difference is the piston of a PIGB design is exposed to much more heat and has less surface area to deal with it.

    Uppers that show an improvement in reliability during heavy firing schedules all have one thing in common, whether it's PIGB or PIBCG- they have greater barrel mass between the chamber and gas block
    I'll show you the money.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7nEnF469FY

    Proof. That is after only 30ish rounds. Imagine 2000. My Piston gun is MUCH easier to clean ot runs cooler because it doesn't store the heat in the BCG or the receiver.. I dont have to clean the bolt at all. I lube it if it is dry. I dont have to clean my trigger group at all. I about all do is take the piston and brush it off with a stiff brush. 2 minutes... thats it




    Minimal effort, minimal time investment. This isnt a FAL or a mutated AR piston.
    Last edited by signkutter; 08-23-13 at 13:45.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post
    Afghanistan
    Israel and these guys

    http://justf.org/Print_All_Grants_Co...ing=&x=291&y=9

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post
    That is somewhat of a modified truth, and does not give a realistic view on the subject.

    There are WAY to many factors at play when it comes to maintenance requirements and lube requirements. Gun powder residue build up is really of no concern, malfunction wise, operationally. There are other, environmental, factors that play a bigger role. There is also a big difference in regards to firing schedules; 5000 rounds in 1 day, vs 5000 rounds, 1 round per day.

    We have had people break HK416s in two weeks of pre-deployment shooting training, as well as guns with more external wear than internal wear, due more to rough handling than actual rounds through the gun. We have had HK416s malfunction and Lock completely up during a pretty heavy TIC, due to lax maintenance routines, and for the most part guns with no issues at all for the guys who take care of their gear.

    Being deployed is not the time to find out how many rounds you gun can go without cleaning before it malfunctions.

    I am usually in the minority here when it comes to maintenance routines, but I cleaned my weapon every day in the field when on exercise or on ops, and after every range session. And I carried the HK416.
    What?? You have to do maintenance on a piston gun? You clean and lubricate your piston gun??? SHUT YOUR MOUTH BLASPHEMER!!!



    C4

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post
    That is somewhat of a modified truth, and does not give a realistic view on the subject.

    There are WAY to many factors at play when it comes to maintenance requirements and lube requirements. Gun powder residue build up is really of no concern, malfunction wise, operationally. There are other, environmental, factors that play a bigger role. There is also a big difference in regards to firing schedules; 5000 rounds in 1 day, vs 5000 rounds, 1 round per day.

    We have had people break HK416s in two weeks of pre-deployment shooting training, as well as guns with more external wear than internal wear, due more to rough handling than actual rounds through the gun. We have had HK416s malfunction and Lock completely up during a pretty heavy TIC, due to lax maintenance routines, and for the most part guns with no issues at all for the guys who take care of their gear.

    Being deployed is not the time to find out how many rounds you gun can go without cleaning before it malfunctions.

    I am usually in the minority here when it comes to maintenance routines, but I cleaned my weapon every day in the field when on exercise or on ops, and after every range session. And I carried the HK416.
    No argument there. All guns fail eventually and the totality of circumstances will accelerate or prolong the time period in which the failure will take place.

    In my experience my Steyr AUG is more dependable and tolerant than any AR I have ever owned. Any AR platform I have ever owned and used was VERY reliable because I knew what to do in order to minimize malfunctions. I knew what ammo to run to minimize malfunctions. I dont worry about that with the AUG. It has run any .223 and 5.56 ammo I have fed it. Anything I have to do to keep my AR's running.. I find I have to do less of to keep my AUG happy.

    Is my AUG a superior weapon in all cirumstances because of this? No... but it does have its advantages.

    One thing you will always find in discussions about the dependability of DI vs Piston is... "if you keep it lubed .. its just as good as" the DIRTY 14 guys even kept their gun lubed throughout its abuse. My point is that I dont have to worry about lubing or cleaning near as much. I dust off a piston every once in awhile
    Last edited by signkutter; 08-23-13 at 14:01.

  5. #55
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    An adjustable gas block has nothing to do with the rifle being PIGB or PIBCG.

    As I recall, the Ruger has a heavier barrel profile than the M4. That makes a difference in temperatures. He also checks temps with the carriers still in the rifle. The wind didn't help with getting accurate readings either.

    Carbon build up was compared bolt to bolt (and I've yet to have carbon build up in that area affect reliability) but he did not compare carbon build up or temperatures piston to piston.

    I shot 500 rounds or so through an AR carbine in an afternoon, took the carrier out and held it in my hand. It was barely warm. Bolt and gas key was a little warmer but not by much. Gas block was hot enough to flash water into steam. Not scientific, but that's my experience. Another tester found there was 40 degrees (f) difference between in carriers between PIGB and PIBCG rifles but I don't recall if he used the same barrel profiles for each rifle in his test
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

    http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
    I am American

  6. #56
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    With all this talk about the AUG being "superior" I wonder why the Aussie SASR don't use or like them?? Since the Australian Military is the main adopter of this weapon, it seems odd that the SASR would go with the M4A1 and MK18.

    I wonder if the US Govt GAVE them those guns as well???

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austral...rvice_Regiment




    C4

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    An adjustable gas block has nothing to do with the rifle being PIGB or PIBCG.

    As I recall, the Ruger has a heavier barrel profile than the M4. That makes a difference in temperatures. He also checks temps with the carriers still in the rifle. The wind didn't help with getting accurate readings either.

    Carbon build up was compared bolt to bolt (and I've yet to have carbon build up in that area affect reliability) but he did not compare carbon build up or temperatures piston to piston.

    I shot 500 rounds or so through an AR carbine in an afternoon, took the carrier out and held it in my hand. It was barely warm. Bolt and gas key was a little warmer but not by much. Gas block was hot enough to flash water into steam. Not scientific, but that's my experience. Another tester found there was 40 degrees (f) difference between in carriers between PIGB and PIBCG rifles but I don't recall if he used the same barrel profiles for each rifle in his test
    I didnt allude to the adjustable gasblock being a determining factor on whether a BCG is directly motivated by gas or not. In fact there are adjustable gas blocks for DI rifles as well. I only pointed out that my AUG has such capability and that is one of the things that makes it more versatile and capable than a DI gun and it is much easier to clean my AUG piston than to clean the m4 BCG... plus I could fire my AUG as a bolt gun if caught with my piston out. The Piston is all I have to worry about.. I dont even think of bolt fouling.


    You dont think that 80 degrees vs 138 degrees is an appreciable difference in such a low round count? how would these temperature extremes degrade lube ... ? even if your guns dont exibit the same behaviors?

    I have to break down and inspect/clean M-4's at work because they dont get cleaned or lubed to the point they malfunction ( with over 150 weapons it happens). I have a tool designed to scrape the carbon buildup from the M4 bolt. There is absolutely no need for this tool in the AUG and thus it does not exist ( although you could probably use on the AUG if you wanted to). I know that the bolt gets fouled up and it gets hot , very hot with full-auto fire. Does the fouling of the bolt contribute directly to the malfunctioning weapon? Maybe maybe not, but i know one thing... after good cleaning and lubing 90% of the M4s that fail, work fine.
    Last edited by signkutter; 08-24-13 at 11:07.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    What?? You have to do maintenance on a piston gun? You clean and lubricate your piston gun??? SHUT YOUR MOUTH BLASPHEMER!!!



    C4

    Posted edited as it added zero technical or informational value to the conversation.

    How does misrepresentation of facts add to anything?
    Last edited by signkutter; 08-23-13 at 15:02.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by signkutter View Post
    I didnt allude to the adjustable gasblock being a determining factor on whether a BCG is directly motivated by gas or not. In fact there are adjustable gas blocks for DI rifles as well. I only pointed out that my AUG has such capability and that is one of the things that makes it more versatile and capable than a DI gun.
    I wasn't talking about AUGs. I was talking about the claim a PIGB can use a wider variety of ammo

    You dont think that 80 degrees vs 138 degrees is an appreciable difference even if your guns dont exibit the same behaviors?
    I do not. 60*f isn't enough at that temp level to make two fiqs difference to the steel used. I also believe that if the tests were performed using the same barrel profiles, the temp differences would be less. Barrel profile is more important to heat control that where the piston is located

    I have to break down and inspect/clean M-4's at work because they dont get cleaned or lubed to the point they malfunction ( with over 150 weapons it happens). I have a tool designed to scrape the carbon buildup from the M4 bolt. There is absolutely no need for this tool in the AUG and thus it does not exist ( although you could probably use on the AUG if you wanted to). I know that the bolt gets fouled up and it gets hot , very hot with full-auto fire. Does the fouling of the bolt contribute directly to the malfunctioning weapon? Maybe maybe not, but i know one thing... after good cleaning and lubing 90% of the M4s that fail, work fine.
    You don't need to scrape the carbon from the AR piston. Sometimes folks design and sell tools because to make money, not because there is a real need. I don't claim the AR doesn't need to be cleaned- that would be silly of me. My point is that the "clear advantages" of a PIGB over a PIC (Piston In Carrier) are neither clear nor advantageous
    Last edited by MistWolf; 08-23-13 at 14:37.
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

    http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
    I am American

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by signkutter View Post
    Come on man, I own an AUG, and it is as accurate as any MIL-Spec AR when operated within its parameters ( proper ammo). It is certainly more reliable and easier, faster to clean. Easier to maneuver in close quarters, much easier in a vehicle, you can fire it accurately one handed if need be. But it is heavier than your average M-4 (but easier to bring to bear since all the weight is close to your body) and more expensive than your bottom of the barrel Colt, DD or BCM, about as much $ as your higher end ones. Less customizable. Stock AUG trigger is to heavy and creepy but with $80 and 15 minutes you can have a 5 pound short and crisp trigger that will rival any combat, SD AR trigger, plus I have two spare parts kits that will cover 99.9% of what can break or wear on the rifle for the next 50k rounds.

    Why would any AUG owner(= "true AUG owner") not like their weapon? If an AUG owner likes his weapon, is he still a "true" owner ? I have talked to a few Customs Agents who carried them for over 5 and ten years as a duty weapon and they loved them. In fact i haven't encountered many AUG owners in RL or internet that didn't love their AUG. I didn't even own an AR platform weapon for over 2 years ( sold both of them) after purchasing an AUG. I recently purchased an AR platform when I found a deal I couldn't refuse on a quality built rifle (with an optic included in its price).

    As far as "AK's go down as well". Quality AK's go down alot less often than Colt M-4's ( ask any AK armorer). Any gun will will go down eventually. But it simply isnt true that a quality built AK costs any more than a quality M-4 or that it is less reliable. Not as accurate maybe, heavier? sure.

    Plus you forgot to mention the three other piston weapon platforms that outperformed the M-4. Look, I like the AR platform enough to have purchased several over the years. I own one now but I am not going to say that they are better in some aspects than a piston rifle when they clearly arent. Piston rifles aren't better than the M-4 in some regards either, it would be disingenuous to suggest that this this true.
    Please just stop now before fireballs start shooting out of my ass and your feelings get hurt.

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