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Thread: M16/M4/AR15 VS Other. Are we making rational decisions?

  1. #31
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    Re: M16/M4/AR15 VS Other. Are we making rational decisions?

    I'm no tier one operator and I did not stay at a holiday inn last night, but I'm pretty sure they load out light because their mission dictates not needing it.

    I've seen many infantry units from various services roll out with 12-15 mags each, as many as 7 on armor and the rest in a backpack. Again, mission dictates. They will be out and about longer on patrols and such while special operations are often inserted and extracted for very specific objectives from what I've seen.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post
    What I don't understand is the constant need to tout the AR as the best rifle out there. We all know that it is a very good rifle, with a proven record and many well thought out features that serve to reaffirm it rightful place among the best rifles that have been made.
    I feel the same way about the AR platform. It is a very good rifle but its isn't the best rifle for everybody. Some people will have a rifle they like better. There are many variables for this, from physical stature, training, familiarity, to personal ergonomic preferences that may make a weapon platform preferable to the AR to certain people. I for one cant understand the arrogant mentality some people have that makes them discount and disparage any opinion that isn't lock-step with their own.

    That does not mean that there aren't other good rifles out there, with other features that the AR does not have, making them attract shooters for that reason.
    Agreed

    People are victims of their frame of reference, for both good and bad.

    I have handled and shot many types of weapons throughout the years, but there are only a few that I am actually proficient with and feel confident using. Of the weapons I have shot and handled, there were a few I really didn't like. Referencing the other thread, I shot a Steyr AUG a couple of weeks ago, and thought is was fun. That said, there were many, to me, flaws with the weapon (ergonomics, mag release, optics, trigger, weird recoil) that put me off on it. Any supposed benefit of the shorter OAL while still keeping a certain BBL did not make up for the perceived negatives.
    I own an AUG, the first time I shot one I immediately liked it. I was fortunate enough to have been introduced to the rifle by a veteran operator of the platform. He demonstrated/ and trained me on the proper form for efficient Mag changes, weak side transition, showed me how to tune the trigger, Optics sat perfect for me ( ACOG, Aimpoint H1, PRO). I repeatedly went through the same drills I practiced/trained others with the M-4. I did so until I was comfortable with the platform and grew to prefer it to the M4 for everything except ranges over 200 yards.

    All that being said... no matter how much I like the AUG ... it doesn't make one single thing you said you didn't like about the AUG wrong..it doesn't make you wrong for not liking it.

    Only an arrogant self serving idiot would start attempting to quantify your likes/dislikes in percentages or evaluate and dismiss your preferences by their standards.

    The gist of this, however, is that this was my experience. Nobody can tell me I'm wrong for thinking what I do. Well, they can, but it doesn't really matter. It all boils down to personal preference. Heck, I shot both a SCAR-L and a SCAR-H this summer, and thought the SCAR-L was too light; I really didn't like the way it handled at all compared to my HK146. That does not mean that the SCAR is a shitty gun, it means that my body has 5 years of HK416 handling ingrained in it.
    An "inferior" weapon in trained hands is more dangerous than a "superior" weapon in untrained hands.
    Only confident man who is secure in his capabilities can see that his preferred method is not the only valid method.


    The AR platform has a lot going for it, compared to other designs. and based on my current frame of reference, that is the platform I would go with. A G3 would be a close second though (if only someone would make a lighter weight version, with better mounting solutions for accessories)
    . AR platform is very adaptable , very dependable.. top notch ergo's. One of the big advantages of the AR platform that I never had much use for ( being an Optic-n- flashlight guy) the accessories that can be mounted on it. I don't discount the capability as an advantage.. just isn't a factor for me.

    For many, gun ownership, preference and training is a learning process. Not everybody is receptive to advice or perceived "short cuts" in getting to an "end-state" with regards to proficiency or quality. They want to experience the whole process themselves. For people with a higher degree of proficiency or more experience, that can sometimes seem a bit strange. It is what it is.
    Some people that have been trained in a certain system and have alot invested in the said system can be irrationally hostile to any kind of deviation from their SOP and methods.

    Like you, I have enough personal experience and training to make my own decisions in confidence. It just irks me a bit when blowhards have to start dropping personal insults, distorting positions and start counting off how many "carbine courses" they have taken blah blah blah...just because a person does not agree with them lock step. I am prior military, current veteran LEO/ Firearms instructor, I train/qualify pistol/M4/UMP/shotgun. I have mentioned it when blowhards question my credibility... but I have never flashed credentials in order to denigrate or discount anybody's chosen weapon system. It is really repulsive to see proclaimed professionals do so.

    Here are my favorite 2 weapons, one a bit more than the other depending on the circumstance.
    Last edited by signkutter; 08-26-13 at 16:55.

  3. #33
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    Re: M16/M4/AR15 VS Other. Are we making rational decisions?

    Quote Originally Posted by signkutter View Post
    I for one cant understand the arrogant mentality some people have that makes them discount and disparage any opinion that isn't lock-step with their own.

    Only an arrogant self serving idiot would start attempting to quantify your likes/dislikes in percentages or evaluate and dismiss your preferences by their standards.

    Some people that have been trained in a certain system and have alot invested in the said system can be irrationally hostile to any kind of deviation from their SOP and methods.

    Like you, I have enough personal experience and training to make my own decisions in confidence. It just irks me a bit when blowhards have to start dropping personal insults, distorting positions and start counting off how many "carbine courses" they have taken blah blah blah...just because a person does not agree with them lock step. I am a Firearms instructor, I train/qualify pistol/M4/UMP/shotgun. I have mentioned it when blowhards question my credibility... but I have never flashed credentials in order to denigrate or discount anybody's chosen weapon system. It is really repulsive to see industry professionals do so.
    Considering who started the thread... how very passive aggressive of you.

    Where's my popcorn at?


    On topic, I definitely train for the 1%. My 1% is deploying with an M4 to some 3rd world country in SWA. My 90% is home defense and the last 9% or so is shooting for fun. My training is actually grossly disproportionate for the 1% since it's the time where I'll most likely need to actually employ the weapon in a life or death situation. But it makes up a tiny tiny tiny percentage of my actual use and handling of the AR platform.
    Last edited by Koshinn; 08-26-13 at 16:49.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  4. #34
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    I selected my primary kit with the 90% in mind. First off, I'm not going to be engaging "insurgents" at 300+ meters. 90+% of all the shots I'll ever make in my lifetime with it will be less than 100 yards. I wanted one I could legally take anywhere I'd be willing to go, so no SBR. A pinned 14.5" LW with fixed BUIS, an Aimpoint Micro (I have "aged" eyesight and corrective lenses might not always be at hand) a Surefire Scout light and a VCAS sling. The only thing I carry on the rifle is lube in the pistol grip.

    I have a wearable bugout kit in the closet with three mags, an Otis cleaning kit, more lube, ESSE 4 knife, extra handheld light & spare batteries, Mechanix gloves, a few power bars, two water bottles and an IFAK that includes basic meds. I can toss an extra mag or two in cargo pockets if need be. Small stuff includes extra glasses, sunscreen, ear plugs, a Sharpie, ink pen with Fisher cartridge and a Rite in the Rain notebook.

    I could go to a basic carbine course and survive with nothing but what I have on. The same could be said for just about anything else I can imagine that wouldn't require a vehicle or pack animal. Other than the rifle, I wouldn't look out of place in pretty much any place I'd be willing to go.

    I'd actually consider this a little heavy overall, but I wouldn't want for anything and other than ammo, it's more bulk than weight. I have Level IV armor with mag shingles and IFAK, but unless it's the dead of winter, I'm not sure my old desk riding ass could survive it in the Oklahoma heat. Even IIA armor is a struggle for an 8 hour shift, and that's WITH A/C in the patrol car!

  5. #35
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    Grant, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. You're one of the big reasons I spend so much more time reading this forum than the other AR forum.

    I grabbed my first (well, second but the first didn't count) AR back in early summer. Every once in a while I'll get eyes onto something I think I just need for it. When I do, I come here and read some more and usually you guys talk me out of it and don't even know it.

    My AR is primarily a plinker. I do intend on a few classes with it and it is ready should something happen. But I am reaching for my daily carry gun or my shotgun first.

    I've been debating between a smooth rail or a red dot next and think I've settled on the red dot. It'll make range use more fun than the smooth rail right now, and I've got nothing to hang of the front anyway.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshinn View Post
    Considering who started the thread... how very passive aggressive of you.

    Where's my popcorn at?
    LOL. Think he is butthurt?



    C4

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyzik View Post
    Grant, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. You're one of the big reasons I spend so much more time reading this forum than the other AR forum.

    I grabbed my first (well, second but the first didn't count) AR back in early summer. Every once in a while I'll get eyes onto something I think I just need for it. When I do, I come here and read some more and usually you guys talk me out of it and don't even know it.

    My AR is primarily a plinker. I do intend on a few classes with it and it is ready should something happen. But I am reaching for my daily carry gun or my shotgun first.

    I've been debating between a smooth rail or a red dot next and think I've settled on the red dot. It'll make range use more fun than the smooth rail right now, and I've got nothing to hang of the front anyway.
    Thanks for the feedback.

    The RDS is a better decision than the Rail so you did well there.


    In my first post, I mentioned I was at Hackathorn's advanced pistol class. The subject of the HD gun choice came up. People often times will tell you that their first choice for HD is going to be a long gun of some kind, but in reality they will most likely have a pistol closest to them. In many ways, the pistol makes a lot of sense as nothing is more maneuverable than it is and as easy to lock up, but still get to in a hurry.



    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 08-26-13 at 17:00.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by grunz View Post
    Finally as Graint said, may guys who do this for real load out light. I think i read in "No Easy Day" that Matt only had 4 rifle mags on him, one in the gun and 3x on his PC... And this was nab UBL...
    This is not meant as a dig towards you, but as a general observation, something that I often see with people's gear choice in the mil.

    While SOF are very good at what they do, and reach a higher level of proficiency than GPF, it is VERY important not to lose focus and start to emulate SOF without really grasping the context. Remember, SOF have Special in their name, and for a reason.

    While tailoring equipment to suit the mission is always important, SOF naturally have greater flexibility in this area due to the nature of their missions. So, something that is a good, and correct, solution for SOF does not neccessarily translate to GPF.
    It's not about surviving, it's about winning!

  9. #39
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    Popular belief about the M16FOW is basically mythology, legend and practically folklore. Certain issues developed 40 years ago that were remedied back then, is carried forward to this day through hearsay. I heard it at different FOBs across AFG as recently as a year ago. It's hard to kill mythology when the problems, rumors, and hearsay of the past are still being told as if the problems still persisted from credible people (NCOs and Vets).

    Quote Originally Posted by sinister View Post
    For the most part many folks will be "Pretending" and "Playing dress-up" with guns.

    They don't know or haven't decided what they want or need but have some money and/or time.
    Agreed. It also explains who so many non-mil/LE students show up all jocked up with plates, lasers, and other useless shit stuck on them or the weapon, dressed head to toe multicam, while being lawyer, woman's clothing manufacturer, or the owner of a few strip clubs, but yet can't change a magazine without dropping them both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watrdawg View Post
    It's amazing how the Vietnam Era shortcomings of the M16 have persisted to this day. I still here people state that the AK is so much more reliable than the M16/M4/AR.
    It persist through NCOs (past, and present) hearing them in their youth from other NCOs, then passing that instruction along to everyone they are charged to teach the weapon to. Example: The operations manual has stated for decades to use a generous amount of lube on the BCG, yet the opposite is not only still taught, but insisted upon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apricotshot View Post
    Fact and Bullshit are hard to filter in the firearms world. Especially with all the misinformation out there put out by people who have never done anything and are unqualified to offer an opinion. Even the switched on people don't always get it right either.
    Agreed. Adherence to the actual manual from basic training, to the line companies would go a long way to standardize what is accurately taught, from a written reference, verses the hearsay that is actually taught to the troops.
    For God and the soldier we adore, In time of danger, not before! The danger passed, and all things righted, God is forgotten and the soldier slighted." - Rudyard Kipling

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    LOL. Think he is butthurt?



    C4
    Moe disgusted than butthurt . The least you could do is acknowledge my experience and background as I have yours. Instead you chose to go the route you did .
    Last edited by signkutter; 08-26-13 at 17:12.

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