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Thread: M16/M4/AR15 VS Other. Are we making rational decisions?

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by jc000 View Post
    This thread could have ended after Sinister's comment.

    The overwhelming majority of folks here (myself included) are definitely engaged in "make-believe" when it comes to the concept of tactically employing an AR in a deadly force episode. It's funny to see the now "anti-Timmy" trend (no multicam/no armor/no extraneous "stuff" on the rifle/etc.) on here. Who cares how others decide to dress or train? Nearly every thread here is about gear.
    I think you might be using to BROAD of a BRUSH by painting everyone that trains with an AR is into "make-believe." Knowing how to use a firearm to defend yourself is good thing!

    There is nothing wrong with owning gear (of any sorts), but KNOW WHY you bought it and the purpose it serves. Especially for the folks on a tight budget and are trying to figure out if they need to buy a $2500 dollar LWRC (as it has a "no cleaning" piston) or a Colt LE6920 for $1k.

    If you have money to burn drive on! Buy one of everything (nobody cares).

    I don't own a PC but intend on getting one because my "make-believe" involves a civil unrest situation. That doesn't change the fact that the likelihood of my being engaged in a violent encounter with a rifle is practically nil.
    I own multi-hit 7.62 rated ceramic plates. I own soft body armor. I own Night Vision, IR lasers, etc, etc. Am I prepared for the WORST POSSIBLE case event?? Sure am. I am also a realist. Statistically speaking, the most likely place that I will have to use a firearm is in my home (at night). The second most likely place is around my home. The third most likely place is out on the street.

    While I would LOVE to walk around with a AR strapped to me, that simply isn't going to fly. So what do I have? A pistol. So the priority is train and practice with said pistol in my normal CCW setup.

    Being realistic about your threats and training to deal with them SHOULD BE your first priority. Everything else (like dressing up in MC, plate carriers and AR training schools) should be second IMHO.

    Shooting is fun and good self defense skills are always valuable to learn and refine. I just don't get the general anti-Timmy attitude--if you're a non mil/non leo, training to use a rifle defensively, you might be a little bit Timmy. Get over yourself.
    Yes, shooting is fun! Training is good. Practicing what you have learned is good.

    Knowing how to us a SG, AK, AR to defend yourself does not make you a "Timmy" (FYI), it simply means that you have common sense.



    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 08-27-13 at 09:31.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Interesting. Can you say what the bullet is made out of? Like copper, etc.???

    What was its accuracy rating at 100yds?

    C4
    The jacket is made of a copper and zinc alloy, the core is in two parts; the front is a hardened steel penetrator, the rear is "normal" steel.

    BC ratings:

    G1: 0.32979
    G7: 0.16637

    G1 rating gives good results within 1cm at 600m
    G7 rating gives good results within less than 1cm at 600m

    During accuracy testing done with HK416N results were 10.9 cm or 1.81 MOA @ 200 meters.
    It's not about surviving, it's about winning!

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post
    The jacket is made of a copper and zinc alloy, the core is in two parts; the front is a hardened steel penetrator, the rear is "normal" steel.

    BC ratings:

    G1: 0.32979
    G7: 0.16637

    G1 rating gives good results within 1cm at 600m
    G7 rating gives good results within less than 1cm at 600m

    During accuracy testing done with HK416N results were 10.9 cm or 1.81 MOA @ 200 meters.

    Accuracy sounds very good! Since it is copper, you get expansion like a normal Hollow Point at low velocity? Or does it fragment?



    C4

  4. #114
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    Grant, I hear what you're saying about kitting up a rifle for the 10% rather than the 90%, but is it not possible to do both reasonably well?
    For example, here's my two rifles, kitted for the firing range, which would certainly fit in with 90% usage (higher, let's be honest):



    I kept them simple and clean, Aimpoint PROs on both, FDE furniture on the BCM not because it looks tacticool, but because it is literally cool--sitting on the bench at the range in the hot sun, the black furniture could get uncomfortably hot while the FDE stays much cooler. In the unlikely event I needed to use either of these rifles for defense, their range configuration should work quite well for that purpose.
    The only changes I'd make to them are, obviously, a light for the BCM, and Magpul pistol grip and mags (when available) for the Arsenal, as the factory grip is simply not as comfortable as the grips on the BCM.
    My point is, I think even a clueless civvie like me can incorporate "form follows function" into what is primarily a range gun that can still be absolutely serviceable in the 10% or less scenarios.
    I can't be sure, but this might have something to do with having an account on M4C and not having one on TOS...

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    I think you might be using to BROAD of a BRUSH by painting everyone that trains with an AR is into "make-believe." Knowing how to use a firearm to defend yourself is good thing!
    No doubt—training with firearms is a great thing. As is any training designed to protect yourself or the ones you care about.

  6. #116
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    Not alot of love here for the AK. What I think the point many are missing is the AK CAN be a useful platform, BUT should not be chosen merely because an AK is "more reliable". An AK needs lube too. You can run a car low on oil for a while, but sooner of later it'll bite you in the rear.

    I have experience with both a BCMish build and an AK 74 built from a Bulgarian parts kit(with a mil spec/CHF/ Chrome lined Bulgarian barrel) I've had a couple thousand of rounds through both. Neither without a single malfunction. The BCM I mostly ran brass m193 and PMC bronze. The AK a mil surp 5.45x39.

    The AK is my go to now (I've since sold the BCM). I find myself more accurate and it's easier for me to use the dot (Aimpoint Micro) with it mounted further out on the ultimak gas tube. I cannot offer a specific explanation for it. I wear corrective lenses, maybe its just me. I also find it very useful I can fold it up, but it in a smaller case. Makes transporting it very discreet and can be ready to fire when directly pulled from that case. The AR would have had to be assembled ( upper pinned to lower). Plus mil surp ammo is at least half the cost for the AK, which means I can budget twice as much shooting or use the money saved on training.

    I took a carbine class hosted Joe Barnesfather recently. My 74 held its own both in accuracy and reliability departments. There was a healthy mix of AR's and AK's. One AR went down due to lack of lubrication.

    As far as gear goes. I have a subload that goes on my belt. I have a holster for my glock. I reload from my pockets alot. No battle belts or PC's for me. Keep it simple.
    Last edited by RMiller; 08-27-13 at 10:32.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Accuracy sounds very good! Since it is copper, you get expansion like a normal Hollow Point at low velocity? Or does it fragment?



    C4
    This is purely second hand info, as I've never seen a terminal ballistic profile on the round, but people privvy to testing claim that it has adequate penetration, in addition to yawing and fragmenting.

    There have been no complains from the field.
    It's not about surviving, it's about winning!

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyFingers View Post
    Grant, I hear what you're saying about kitting up a rifle for the 10% rather than the 90%, but is it not possible to do both reasonably well?
    For example, here's my two rifles, kitted for the firing range, which would certainly fit in with 90% usage (higher, let's be honest):



    I kept them simple and clean, Aimpoint PROs on both, FDE furniture on the BCM not because it looks tacticool, but because it is literally cool--sitting on the bench at the range in the hot sun, the black furniture could get uncomfortably hot while the FDE stays much cooler. In the unlikely event I needed to use either of these rifles for defense, their range configuration should work quite well for that purpose.
    The only changes I'd make to them are, obviously, a light for the BCM, and Magpul pistol grip and mags (when available) for the Arsenal, as the factory grip is simply not as comfortable as the grips on the BCM.
    My point is, I think even a clueless civvie like me can incorporate "form follows function" into what is primarily a range gun that can still be absolutely serviceable in the 10% or less scenarios.
    I can't be sure, but this might have something to do with having an account on M4C and not having one on TOS...
    Oh, it is 100% doable! You just have to make a few sacrifices. For instance, you can go with a BCM SS barrel (that will shoot under 1"), but is a Govt weight with a 5.56 chamber. Add a 1-4 or 1-6 scope with an illuminated dot and now you have an excellent training gun or a pretty good varmint setup.



    C4

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMiller View Post
    Not alot of love here for the AK. What I think the point many are missing is the AK CAN be a useful platform, BUT should not be chosen merely because an AK is "more reliable". An AK needs lube too. You can run a car low on oil for a while, but sooner of later it'll bite you in the rear.

    I have experience with both a BCMish build and an AK 74 built from a Bulgarian parts kit(with a mil spec/CHF/ Chrome lined Bulgarian barrel) I've had a couple thousand of rounds through both. Neither without a single malfunction. The BCM I mostly ran brass m193 and PMC bronze. The AK a mil surp 5.45x39.

    The AK is my go to now (I've since sold the BCM). I find myself more accurate and it's easier for me to use the dot (Aimpoint Micro) with it mounted further out on the ultimak gas tube. I cannot offer a specific explanation for it. I wear corrective lenses, maybe its just me. I also find it very useful I can fold it up, but it in a smaller case. Makes transporting it very discreet and can be ready to fire when directly pulled from that case. The AR would have had to be assembled ( upper pinned to lower). Plus mil surp ammo is at least half the cost for the AK, which means I can budget twice as much shooting or use the money saved on training.

    I took a carbine class hosted Joe Barnesfather recently. My 74 held its own both in accuracy and reliability departments. There was a healthy mix of AR's and AK's. One AR went down due to lack of lubrication.

    As far as gear goes. I have a subload that goes on my belt. I have a holster for my glock. I reload from my pockets alot. No battle belts or PC's for me. Keep it simple.
    All Red blooded American men need to own a 1911. In the same breath, they should own a quality AK as well.

    The down side to the 7.62 and 5.45 AK's is the quality and availability of defensive ammo for them. There are MUCH better (and more technology advanced) bullets available on the .223/5.56 side.

    So I would always have an AR available to me for these two reasons alone.

    Good on you for running your AK in a AR class!

    C4

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post
    This is purely second hand info, as I've never seen a terminal ballistic profile on the round, but people privvy to testing claim that it has adequate penetration, in addition to yawing and fragmenting.

    There have been no complains from the field.
    Got it. I have to admit that the TSX 70gr (Brown Tip) is pretty impressive (especially in an SBR). It greatly extends the lethality of short barrel.

    So I was curious if your ammo performed the same (as it is using a copper bullet).




    C4

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