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Thread: M16/M4/AR15 VS Other. Are we making rational decisions?

  1. #151
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    discussing what's needed and not, I think of it as a layering approach determined by finances. first thing, get a good weapon with fixed sights and plenty of spare mags. lots of ammo and training is a good thing and should be in the budget but sometimes it is what it is...

    any rifle needs a sling. sling is to rifle as holster is to pistol. if you can seriously say your gun will never need to be fired in low light conditions, forego the light but think long and hard about that question...

    an optic of some kind makes hitting easier but I would sooner use irons sights than some crappy $100 turd just to say I got one. and quad rails are a good idea when lasers and other ancillary equipment needs to be mounted but if all your putting out there is a light and maybe a VFG of some kind, there's other ways to do that...

    next is your carry gear - if you can afford the best, get it, you won't regret it. but if you can't, I don't see it as shameful to get what you can afford and upgrade when you can. some of the cheap stuff works because it is a copy of good gear and the sacrifice is durability. and some doesn't. at all. in my mind, this is part of what training is for - to wring out my gear, adjusting, rearranging, dumping what doesn't work and keeping what does.

    training comes in different flavors. carrying mags in pockets is fine as some people have stated but some situations and training require more than that. for a carbine class at any level beyond Fundamental, I like using a good belt and chest rig. I also have a PC for training when it's required. for CCW or urban carry classes, I use my IWB holster and normal everyday gear and mags in pockets works well here.

    no doubt, running with minimal gear is more comfortable. what I don't want to do is train exclusively the lightest or slickest I can go every time as I don't get any training on the gear I have. I actually want training to test me and if this means carrying more weight, then I put this down to conditioning and readiness with gear necessary for more involved applications. it's important to make the distinction between those situations and dress accordingly though...
    Last edited by ra2bach; 08-28-13 at 14:00.
    never push a wrench...

  2. #152
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    First off just have to say, I'm no "tier" anything and more or less a recreational shooter. When I built my first AR, I had available funds so as a hobby decided to build a top tier carbine. Ordered all the parts from Bravo, BCM upper, lower, LPK and TROY rear BUIS. After putting these together decided on a Larue FF handguard, ERGO grip, ACS stock and a muzzle break. Later added an Aimpoint /Larue combo and Larue light. Rifle shot great, took a class and found first thing when we hit the dirt was got a facefull of AZ dirt and it got heavy as the day dragged on.

    Since still had parts on hand so based upon a year of shooting and class experience I decided to build another one. This time BCM upper with narrow profile barrel, same lower with LPK, Aimpoint with Larue, BUIS but opted for MOE handguard/stock/grip. Took another class and fell in favor of the lighter carbine.

    So I echo many of the fore-mentioned comments, most folks I know eventually end up taking the same route I did on evolving into a carbine. There is good info on this site and I applaud all I have learned in the past years from the different viewpoints and explanation. Keep up the good work.
    Last edited by WKshooter; 08-28-13 at 14:29.

  3. #153
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    The gun market has exploded in the last decade. With shows like top shot, sons of guns, video games like MOH and battlefield, people want to go for "the look" regardless of weather or not they'll use any of it. Those same people seem to go to gun shops, buy a dpms, and deck it out with nc star, Leapers, or whatever the same guy tends to have in stock (because he tells them it's the best).

    Then the buyer goes to a range, has a bad expierence and vows AR15s are junk. This was kinda/sorta me 10 years ago. I shot a friends dpms and left afterwards questioning why anyone would want an AR15. A few years later I bought a double star and had nothing but good experiences so then my attitude changed.

    Now, thanks to this forum I have pretty much cleared out all that stuff and own a Daniel Defense v5, and am in the process of shopping for an aimpoint RDS and irons. Ironically I've had more jams with my AKs than I have had with my (not counting my friend's dpms) ARs. I think once most people get informed and are mature enough to understand it, we then make rational choices. Good thread Grant!

  4. #154
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    Re: M16/M4/AR15 VS Other. Are we making rational decisions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Atg336 View Post
    https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=7

    There is a standard terminology on this website, which is sort of important.
    We exchange info on here regarding technical and training matters with SMEs as well as each other, therefore using accurate universal terminology is key to understanding topics.

    I try to leave Bubba talk and other personal terminology off my posts as much as I can.
    It's not bubba talk. On this board, AR is short for AR-15. Back on topic now?
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Really? How hard did you look? I can literally send you 10,000 pics of Active Duty guys with weapon lights on their guns!


    It is of course your right to do whatever you want to your rifle, but if you have any thought on grabbing your Colt in the dark, I would STRONGLY suggest mounting a weapon light to it (as you do not see in the dark).



    C4
    Did YOU take the pictures ?? Were YOU there ??

    Beards mean Elite Unit with Elite Budget. I said soldiers. The grunts are issued an M4 or M16 with standard hand guards. No money for elite equipment. They are issued flashlights for their belts.

    Most elite troops are highly trained warriors, that's what attracts the mall ninja type.

    If I use my AR for defense it will be in my home. I will have a flashlight handy, but it won't be mounted on my weapon to provide a beacon for the BG. Hint, I didn't learn that on TV.
    Last edited by jnichols2; 08-28-13 at 19:29.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnichols2 View Post
    Did YOU take the pictures ?? Were YOU there ??

    Beards mean Elite Unit with Elite Budget. I said soldiers. The grunts are issued an M4 or M16 with standard hand guards. No money for elite equipment. They are issued flashlights for their belts.

    Most elite troops are highly trained warriors, that's what attracts the mall ninja type.
    Seeing how I have sold weapons light to everyone from contractors, to medics to grunts, they all have them. Would you like some pics of regular "grunts" with weapon mounted lights?

    No idea what "mall ninja" has to do with this thread so keep it out of the discussion please.

    Please share with us how you are you going to use your handheld light and your AR. I do know of some techniques, they generally SUCK in comparison to weapon mounted lights.

    Yes, lights are beacon for bullets. That is why you flash bulb your target, move and then fire.

    No one learned anything on TV (FYI).


    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 08-28-13 at 19:36.

  7. #157
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    My EDC carbine for work, play, training, and things that go bump in the night. I own guns that are both simpler and fancier, but this is the one I reach for most often. Usually, supported only by a simple shoulder slung go-bag. I know my holds from 0-300, know that it will eat the ammo I feed it, and know that it will keep going...and keep me going.

    Few are left short by such a setup, including many professional end users. Sometimes, we just overthink this stuff.

    2012 National Zumba Endurance Champion
    الدهون القاع الفتيات لك جعل العالم هزاز جولة الذهاب

  8. #158
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    M16/M4/AR15 VS Other. Are we making rational decisions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skintop911 View Post
    My EDC carbine for work, play, training, and things that go bump in the night. I own guns that are both simpler and fancier, but this is the one I reach for most often. Usually, supported only by a simple shoulder slung go-bag. I know my holds from 0-300, know that it will eat the ammo I feed it, and know that it will keep going...and keep me going.

    Few are left short by such a setup, including many professional end users. Sometimes, we just overthink this stuff.


    A quick "Amen!!" from the back row.

    AC
    Stand your ground; don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here. -- Captain John Parker, Lexington, 1775.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnichols2 View Post
    Did YOU take the pictures ?? Were YOU there ??

    Beards mean Elite Unit with Elite Budget. I said soldiers. The grunts are issued an M4 or M16 with standard hand guards. No money for elite equipment. They are issued flashlights for their belts.

    Most elite troops are highly trained warriors, that's what attracts the mall ninja type.

    If I use my AR for defense it will be in my home. I will have a flashlight handy, but it won't be mounted on my weapon to provide a beacon for the BG. Hint, I didn't learn that on TV.
    I recommend taking a class from a well qualified instructor and learn something that might save your life. Do not go back to the guy who taught you that. In the interim, hunker down in a room, call 911 and don't venture out.... and try not to shoot family members fumbling for your flashlight while maintaining control of your weapon.
    For God and the soldier we adore, In time of danger, not before! The danger passed, and all things righted, God is forgotten and the soldier slighted." - Rudyard Kipling

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Seeing how I have sold weapons light to everyone from contractors, to medics to grunts, they all have them. Would you like some pics of regular "grunts" with weapon mounted lights?

    No idea what "mall ninja" has to do with this thread so keep it out of the discussion please.

    Please share with us how you are you going to use your handheld light and your AR. I do know of some techniques, they generally SUCK in comparison to weapon mounted lights.

    Yes, lights are beacon for bullets. That is why you flash bulb your target, move and then fire.

    No one learned anything on TV (FYI).


    C4
    I'll agree to leave "mall ninja" in the same trashcan as "Haha, did they ever let you out of your room?"

    As I said in my initial input, I served 4 tours in Iraq with 101st Airborne, 4ID, and 1 CAV (2X). I lived and worked with the soldiers.

    On one tour with 1 CAV I tried to help a soldier that received Article 15 punishment for possessing a laser sight for his pistol. It was "unauthorized armament". You only use firearms "as issued".

    I think the 101st, 4ID, and 1 CAV pretty much represent the Army. I also knew many soldiers that ordered, or were sent, customizing parts, but they were careful to keep them hidden from the 1st Sgt.

    As for contractors, they got away with a lot the soldiers couldn't. On some FOBs they were even allowed to have firearms as authorized by their company. If so, the Army wasn't really concerned with any added equipment.

    As Army Civil Service, I had things the soldiers would be punished for. The commander and 1st Sgt knew it. They also knew I wasn't issued and firearms.

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