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Thread: M16/M4/AR15 VS Other. Are we making rational decisions?

  1. #251
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    Wow, Did I ever get lost in this thread! I didn't understand a lot of the military lingo starting a few pages back. I'm still trying to decide what to do about a light. I take it from reading this thread that all the instructors here use a light on their rifle? The mother-in-law/bad guy post by AC just about seals the deal. There can never be doubt about a target.

  2. #252
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    Good points there, Belly.

    Your strengths and weaknesses might not be exactly as you are envisioning them, either. I'm closing on 30 years of service, and after I traded my stripes and crossed-rifles for a bar and wings, I pretty much dealt exclusively with sidearms as my issued weapon thereafter. Never once failed to fire expert in the qualification courses that followed over the next couple of decades, so I was fairly confident that my short gun skills were solid. I wasn't so sure about carbine, since I hadn't carried one in earnest in quite some time.

    Then I started hitting the training circuit a bit. A simple VSM weekend revealed that I was actually pretty decent with a carbine (and who isn't, really?), but my sidearms skills were actually pretty pathetic. I was so accustomed to the Army's slow-fire and generous accuracy standards that I had no effective means of evaluating my true progress. The lights came on quickly, but I would probably still be in the starting blocks if it hadn't been for an instructor or two getting into my personal space and asking me what I was really trying to do. Didn't it look like I was Mr. High Speed? I'm already pretty good at this stuff, no? Apparently not.

    I found more value in being correctly-assessed on a private range than in any marksmanship training I had received in service trim -- to include some rather-focused opportunities with SF-types in various places at various times. Didn't know what I didn't know.

    And you're right. Handguns are cool, convenient and fun to buy; that said, most of us suck with them, compared to where we ought to be ... and yet, what are you most likely to have in your hand if/when evil crosses your path? A carbine or a precision rig? Not so much.

    Handgun training still frustrates me from time to time, because I want to be far better than I am -- or, at least, to think that I'm better than I am. lol It's certainly true that I can self-correct much better today than I ever could before, but that comes from formal training, and not from the collection of support materials I've amassed in my bookcase.

    Make the investment in real-live training. Like I said, I don't always like it, but I always think it is time and money well-spent.

    AC
    Stand your ground; don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here. -- Captain John Parker, Lexington, 1775.

  3. #253
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    I really want to take my first course.

    For the past few months I have just been working on hitting what I am aim at at distances. I have found that what I have been working- trigger control, breathing, etc. has helped with accuracy a lot

    To what standard? I do not know. But my groups at 100 yards have gotten smaller, my hits at various distances out to 600 are more frequent.


    Am I wrong to think that working on accuracy until I can get training a class is a good thing to do?
    Last edited by Zane1844; 08-29-13 at 23:35.

  4. #254
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    DVDs are a good place to start, I think. They can at least give you a realistic and proper picture of shooting techniques. I had a LE pistol course that DVDs helped me prepare for. My technique going into the class was relatively good (in comparison to some in the class who had not done any shooting aside from local indoor range stuff) but there were still a few kinks to be ironed out. What I saw on the video and what I was doing were often not 100% the same, and a DVD can't correct you.

    I'd imagine that such things help instructors too. If you have someone who educated themselves prior to a class, it's probably easier for the instructor to say something like, "Looks good overall, just move your elbow in like this a bit..." instead of, "Ok, your feet need to be like this, not that, you need to square your shoulders like this...no, like this...no, like THIS *sigh* okay...now your feet are where they were and...keep your finger off the trigger please..." BANG! "That's why."

  5. #255
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    I've had a few pretty smart people help me out with el pistola.

    One of the training aids I made was a simple stand made of 2x4s, with a 2x4 vertical post. At the top of it was another 2x4 attached by a hinge. When you put a type-e silhouette target, the only way it falls is if you hit the 4" center strip. If you leave it a little longer and add the simple OIF door closer (string and a bottle of water) and you've got a simple resetting target on the cheap. Add more water for more resistance. I set it so that it took at least three hits in a row in a pretty quick succession made it to down. Take too long and it reset itself. It was pretty maddening.

    Also...... Dry fire dry fire dry fire.... I dry fire about a half hour every day, with some sort of firearm. I firmly believe that for every round you sent downrange, you should execute about 20-30 dry fire repetitions.

    Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire......

  6. #256
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    When I didn't have a whole lot of time to get to a training course, I joined some good dudes in Colorado at their local matches (both rifle and pistol, then later the prairie dog shoots).

    I always kept the end goal in mind:

    1) pistol competitions: use my carry rig and remember that the only hits I counted were A-Zone and that I wasn't allowed to hit ANY no-shoots.

    2) rifle competitions: nothing can substitute having the opportunity to run around and shoot at semi-small targets with a carbine. The distances were always 200-500 yards. Perfect for a carbine. Only hits count and when you're sweating and your heart pounding in your chest, it's hard to hit a 10" square from 420 yards away.

    3) prairie dog shoots: fundamentals under time constraints. Always difficult.

    What are the thoughts on competitions?

  7. #257
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    Good points on this thread. I like running a suppressed 10.5" Noveske with an 8 mag chest rig. I like 8 mags as that's what I ran while on my second combat tour and that's the balance of weight ratio I can physically manage without any fatigue.

    I feel it all boils down to one's level of capability and physical fitness. Sure I could carry more... Add a pack with camelback and chest plates and things get more involved for movement and speed suffers. A balancing act for anyone serious in being a light fighter needs to address.
    Originally Posted by Iraqgunz
    This is 2012. The world is going to end this December and people are still trying to debate the merits of piece of shit, cost cutting crap AR's. Really?

  8. #258
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    Thoughts. Gear load out what is the likely situation. HD probably one in gun and a spare. Training.. most classes recommend ability to carry at least 3-4 mags. Tier 1...mission dictates plus has CAS assets and backup ECT. Some screwed unit running convoy of 3 vehicles and 9-12 troops from Kuwait to Biap, leading TCNs trucks. without good or any commo and no back up.. as much ammo as I could get and carry. 14 rifle mags, 11 pistol mags 6 frags, 12 ga.SG (self and pack). Last Deployment 4 MP teams on PTT mission with back up 1 hour plus away same as above.. Currently 3 pistol, 2 rifle mags. with option of more. With issued light on pistol personal light on rifle (SureFire) plus few handheld lights.

    Some are going to look cool / play.. Some to just learn /improve.
    Personally choice. I'll use/ carry light(s) and mags as needed. plate carrier with mags depending on.. training. SHF. Radio Dispatch. Range drill.

    Competitions can be useful due to stress. Ref: Carlo Hathcock's remarks on shooting in Competitions.

    AK vs AR both have been working for over 50 years. Piston vs DI It's a tool it will break. Proprietary parts =one one place to get part.. I'll stick with a DI AR

    FYI.. Prior Mil experience 15 y 11B/ 11M been light, mech 113, BFV. and 95B/31B. 3 sand box Inf. 2 MP
    19.37 year (AD) RETIRED as reservist.
    NRA Life Member.

  9. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinlessorrow View Post
    Well I guess its good to know if I shine my light in someone face all they have to do is squint to ignore it.
    Check your PMs, as to not derail the thread further.

    --------

    Apologize for my participation in the derail, but some comments just need to be cleared up.
    It's not about surviving, it's about winning!

  10. #260
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    I am fortunate in central NC that we have so many courses within an hour-and-a-half of where I live; competitions, too, are many and multiple. The problem for me comes down to money and opportunity.

    I like the idea of getting the DVDs and filming yourself shooting...might have to try that myself.

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