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Thread: M16/M4/AR15 VS Other. Are we making rational decisions?

  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckman View Post
    I am fortunate in central NC that we have so many courses within an hour-and-a-half of where I live; competitions, too, are many and multiple. The problem for me comes down to money and opportunity.

    I like the idea of getting the DVDs and filming yourself shooting...might have to try that myself.
    If you go this route, because of limited funds, you might want to have another like minded individual review the film of your performance and offer suggestions. You could do this for each other.

    We can be our own worst critics, but we are creatures of habit and may not see something in our technique that needs to be adjusted to be more effective.

    You might want to first determine your needs and who best teaches what you want to learn before picking up instructional materials.
    Train 2 Win

  2. #262
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    Well, as I had mentioned in my last post (sorry if this is non-sequitur, but I am trying to maintain the spirit of this thread), I have evolved my opinion of my needs to, in my OPINION, better suite my reality.

    I like suppressors because they allow me to shoot without all of the concussion and noise that typically causes me to want to double-up when I use the electronic ear-pro most commonly available at reasonable prices (19-21NRR).

    So, I bought the 5.56 SBR and put a 556-212 on it, per my last post in this thread.

    Well, that was well and good, except that 10.5" 5.56 rifles really do give up a lot, they are over-gassed, and they beat up a can.

    My "needs" are home defense, and hunting. Where I am moving, that means hog, black bear, and deer, at 5-150 yards, maybe 200 yards on a LONG shot (NW Arkansans).

    After speaking with Kyle Lamb, and getting his take on the calibers available, I came to the conclusion that part of the reason many prefer 5.56 is its trajectory. It allows a goodly distance before hold-over begins. For guys like Kyle Lamb, I totally get this. Iraq/Afghanistan is wide open country. For me, in the hills of NW Arkansas, that won't be as big of an issue.

    So, I decided that I loved the ergonomics and controllability of the M4, but wanted something that suppressed better, regarding internal ballistics (cyclic rate/carrier-velocity increase/powder burn, etc.)

    I ended up, as you may guess, at the 300BLK. A .30 caliber slug with all of the benefits of the M4 platform that I can make into a dedicated suppressed carbine with a similar OAL to my 16" unsuppressed setup. Here is how I arrived there, and please, feel free to critique, add to, or detract from my choices, as I am always looking for suggestions from others more knowledgeable than myself.

    *Note...no ACOG's for 600 meter "sniper duels". No grip-pods for that "HRT" style shot. Just the stuff I think that will benefit me. (sorry for no actual pics of the NFA items, but I can't have them, yet. Form 4's sent and checks cashed).

    Anyway, here is my setup:
    https://danieldefense.com/rifles/pis...e-300-sbr.html

    +

    http://www.surefire.com/tactical-equ...com762-rc.html

    +

    (stuff I already have..."air rifle"...yay for waiting on the above NFA items )
    This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 980x586.

    Parts list to be added:
    -LaRue/VTAC sling
    -EXPS 3-0 Eotech
    -LaRue index clips
    -Geissele "Super V" trigger (spec'ed by Kyle Lamb, it's basically a single-stage SSA)
    -BCM Gunfighter grip
    -Gunfighter CH Mod 4 (med)
    -X300U
    -Troy rear BUIS
    -Daniel Defense FSB bolt-on in front of the X300U
    -Magpul RVG
    -KAC trigger-guard (because it's cool)
    -An assortment of FDE windowless last-production G2 PMAG's and Lancer AWM's
    -B5 Enhanced SOPMOD
    -Surefire SOCOM FH mount
    -Colt "gold" extractor spring will be added

    +

    Food




    Let me know what can be improved in addition to the parts I already have and what I am waiting on.

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Chief View Post
    Good points there, Belly.

    Your strengths and weaknesses might not be exactly as you are envisioning them, either. I'm closing on 30 years of service, and after I traded my stripes and crossed-rifles for a bar and wings, I pretty much dealt exclusively with sidearms as my issued weapon thereafter. Never once failed to fire expert in the qualification courses that followed over the next couple of decades, so I was fairly confident that my short gun skills were solid. I wasn't so sure about carbine, since I hadn't carried one in earnest in quite some time.

    Then I started hitting the training circuit a bit. A simple VSM weekend revealed that I was actually pretty decent with a carbine (and who isn't, really?), but my sidearms skills were actually pretty pathetic. I was so accustomed to the Army's slow-fire and generous accuracy standards that I had no effective means of evaluating my true progress. The lights came on quickly, but I would probably still be in the starting blocks if it hadn't been for an instructor or two getting into my personal space and asking me what I was really trying to do. Didn't it look like I was Mr. High Speed? I'm already pretty good at this stuff, no? Apparently not.

    I found more value in being correctly-assessed on a private range than in any marksmanship training I had received in service trim -- to include some rather-focused opportunities with SF-types in various places at various times. Didn't know what I didn't know.

    And you're right. Handguns are cool, convenient and fun to buy; that said, most of us suck with them, compared to where we ought to be ... and yet, what are you most likely to have in your hand if/when evil crosses your path? A carbine or a precision rig? Not so much.

    Handgun training still frustrates me from time to time, because I want to be far better than I am -- or, at least, to think that I'm better than I am. lol It's certainly true that I can self-correct much better today than I ever could before, but that comes from formal training, and not from the collection of support materials I've amassed in my bookcase.

    Make the investment in real-live training. Like I said, I don't always like it, but I always think it is time and money well-spent.

    AC

    This is a very important read and one of the most honest I have read on this forum in a long time.

    My Grandfather was a high ranking Ohio State Trooper. My Father was the classic woodsman (hunter, trapper, fishing guide in Canada, excellent shooter, etc). I grew up with a gun in my hand and believed that I was a good shooter.

    Then, after getting out of the Military I took my first REAL training class and learned the horrible truth. I knew nothing.

    Learning from both AC and I, just because you pass .MIL or LE quals most likely means you do not know how to shoot (well). Having family that are excellent hunters, gun collectors, LE, MIL, etc doesn't mean you know how to defend yourself with a firearm.

    Be honest about yourself and see what you don't know (by attending a training class).



    C4

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    ....just because you pass .MIL or LE quals most likely means you do not know how to shoot (well). Having family that are excellent hunters, gun collectors, LE, MIL, etc doesn't mean you know how to defend yourself with a firearm...C4
    This comment is on point.
    Train 2 Win

  5. #265
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    Solid advice. It's a mistake to think you know it all or "know enough". There is always somebody that knows more that you can learn from and tactics are always evolving.

    People coming out of the military are some of the worst. No offense to those who have served. They just assume they were tought everything they need to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    This is a very important read and one of the most honest I have read on this forum in a long time.

    My Grandfather was a high ranking Ohio State Trooper. My Father was the classic woodsman (hunter, trapper, fishing guide in Canada, excellent shooter, etc). I grew up with a gun in my hand and believed that I was a good shooter.

    Then, after getting out of the Military I took my first REAL training class and learned the horrible truth. I knew nothing.

    Learning from both AC and I, just because you pass .MIL or LE quals most likely means you do not know how to shoot (well). Having family that are excellent hunters, gun collectors, LE, MIL, etc doesn't mean you know how to defend yourself with a firearm.

    Be honest about yourself and see what you don't know (by attending a training class).



    C4

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    This is a very important read and one of the most honest I have read on this forum in a long time.

    My Grandfather was a high ranking Ohio State Trooper. My Father was the classic woodsman (hunter, trapper, fishing guide in Canada, excellent shooter, etc). I grew up with a gun in my hand and believed that I was a good shooter.

    Then, after getting out of the Military I took my first REAL training class and learned the horrible truth. I knew nothing.

    Learning from both AC and I, just because you pass .MIL or LE quals most likely means you do not know how to shoot (well). Having family that are excellent hunters, gun collectors, LE, MIL, etc doesn't mean you know how to defend yourself with a firearm.

    Be honest about yourself and see what you don't know (by attending a training class).



    C4
    Yep, I fully admit that I don't know that much. The fear is that I still don't know what I don't know. Once I know, then I can start to learn and work on it. Maybe I should cool it with the long range shooting for a bit and refocus on the hand cannons.

  7. #267
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    Here, as elsewhere, the acknowledgment of ignorance is the first step on the journey towards meaningful and lasting learning. Those at the top of this particular game will, more often than not, tell you that they remain lifelong students themselves.

    No one ever truly "arrives" at the mountaintop of all-knowledge, but no one committed to learning ever really need languish in the pool of mediocrity, either. Stay hungry ...

    AC
    Stand your ground; don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here. -- Captain John Parker, Lexington, 1775.

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMiller View Post
    Solid advice. It's a mistake to think you know it all or "know enough". There is always somebody that knows more that you can learn from and tactics are always evolving.

    People coming out of the military are some of the worst. No offense to those who have served. They just assume they were tought everything they need to know.

    I also took this comment to heart: check the ego at the door.

    I knew that the army didn't teach me everything, and I didn't have the time to get to a reputable course. Luckily, I had a group of switched on guys at my installation that gave me some pointers and then invited me to a local uspsa comp. they were there and gave me critiques about my shooting.

    I'm actually pretty excited about getting to a pistol course.

  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Chief View Post
    Here, as elsewhere, the acknowledgment of ignorance is the first step on the journey towards meaningful and lasting learning. Those at the top of this particular game will, more often than not, tell you that they remain lifelong students themselves.

    No one ever truly "arrives" at the mountaintop of all-knowledge, but no one committed to learning ever really need languish in the pool of mediocrity, either. Stay hungry ...

    AC
    You said it with much more eloquence

  10. #270
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    Re: M16/M4/AR15 VS Other. Are we making rational decisions?

    Quote Originally Posted by RMiller View Post
    People coming out of the military are some of the worst. No offense to those who have served. They just assume they were tought everything they need to know.
    Which is sad because everything they need to know should be taught to combat arms mil. But there are so many other things to learn besides shooting, and along with inertia from SNCOs from the cold war and big Army, can do a disservice to those going into harm's way.

    Then again, my step bro, a SPC in the 82d, attended a Tigerswan class on the Army's dime. My own experience with the updated USAF M4 qual mirrors the general trend towards more modern shooting techniques. But on the USAF side at least, only a few career fields even get to shoot once a year. Most don't touch a M9 or M4 after basic unless deploying.
    Last edited by Koshinn; 08-30-13 at 10:01.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

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