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Thread: M16/M4/AR15 VS Other. Are we making rational decisions?

  1. #291
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    I'm not berating anyone's frame of reference, so don't take it that way. If you feel GPFs are adequately prepared, that’s your point of view. From my perspective and what I've witnessed, most are inadequately prepared. Basic training is just that, basic. Most troops outside of combat arms rarely get the opportunity to train as folks from the latter, yet when you come across those folks initially in training, the arrogance in some can be pretty astounding. Some may have lucked out in actual combat encounters, but the difference that made them prevail was in their own individual fortitude vs what they were actually taught. Training priorities and budgets changes based on the needs of that organization, peace time service or draw downs. It’s all based on money, so of course money will be allocated based on that need, and doled out accordingly.

    What I posted also conveyed what I felt attending my first carbine course as a former 11B. Sure we were taught the basics in shooting and tactics, but the concentration was on the tactics, while shooting with blanks, and shooting live on a static range with the occasional tire house CQB added in. Based on what I learned in that first class alone, I felt inadequately prepared by the US Army from what I learned back in my day, as I don't recall ever training in "shoot on the move' with pistol or rifle with live ammo or practicing simple weapons manipulations or mag changes. It's completely worthless to continuously train with blanks while assuming the outcome would be the same using live ammo and against a determined foe that shot back. That's my frame of reference.

    There are also many outside Infantry and SOF who think they are the they are the cats ass at gun fighting, as witnessed in other classes I've attended. Some of my bros who think that since they were in a certain service, that made them an expert in tactics and shooting, even though they drove trucks, were clerks, cooks, etc...then couldn't do a simple mag change without fumbling or dropping full mags on the deck after they inserted it, or clear a simple failure to feed without looking at the weapon like it was a mystery, which they actually caused in the first place because they didn't do a simple push pull on that mag. I'm aware of budget allocations and all the reasons for them, and why certain units are allocated more or less beans and bullets vs other units. At one point, we had an Army SOF Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff who felt that a Soldier's basic fighting skills were also inadequate, and started to include more advanced war fighting skills across the board in the Army. It was ultimately nixed due to training cost. If we had an unlimited supply of funds, it would be a non issue. Just to add, I did not imply that an individual discard what they were previously taught. That is their call as to whether to seek additional professional training or as you say, remain frozen in their frame of reference. In my case, from taking several training sessions from professional SOF trainers over the years, I pretty much completely disregarded what I was previously taught back in the day because it was out dated, obsolete, and irrelevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post
    Ok. I'll try to word this carefully as to avoid any confusion to what I am saying.

    I will preface this with saying that GPF probably have a ways to go, when it comes to using updated techniques, and that "Big Army" is a bit behind the curve in this area.

    Here is a vid made by a Norwegian Home Guard unit, clearly showing that they are not switched on to contemporary techniques:

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=407807095985513

    However, stating that GPF forces have not been adequately prepared for combat through their training is pretty exaggerated, in my opinion.

    Compared to who, exactly?

    A civilian whose only frame of reference is said course from said ex-SOF instructor?

    A SOF soldier, who has undergone a more rigorous selection, more rigorous training conducted by more experienced personell, serving in units with a totally different budgetary reality? For example, the Army SOF unit in Norway is allocated 2/3 of the entire Army ammunition budget every year. This is a unit with maybe 200-250 actual shooters, the rest are support personnell.

    And what is the mission profile we are looking at when claiming that GPF don't know enough to be successful in combat? Hostage Rescue? HVT kill or capture? Probably true. Combined arms assault against a prepared and dug in enemy? I think it will suffice. In the Big Army fight, it's not the shooters per se who win.

    I agree that one should seek to refine or change techniques if there are better out there, but we should be careful when making broad statements like the one made above. It is very easy to lose perspective. To compare GPF to SOF with regards to individual soldier skills is like comparing the driving skills of Joe the bus driver to Michael Schumacher.

    I know that the statement stems from frustration and a desire to improve things. I also understand about attitudes, but they are victims of their frame of reference. Why should they automatically discard what they have learned, or perhaps used successfully in combat, just because somebody says it on the internet? Show them a better way, teach them a better way. Don't berate them for not knowing.

    Hell, I used a magwell grip on my G3, and choked the chicken on my VFG when I first started using them. My techniques evolved as I continued to learn.

    In closing, I want to remind people that shooting, while an important skill, is only a small part of what makes a soldier a soldier.
    Last edited by RogerinTPA; 08-31-13 at 13:24. Reason: Add info.
    For God and the soldier we adore, In time of danger, not before! The danger passed, and all things righted, God is forgotten and the soldier slighted." - Rudyard Kipling

  2. #292
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    Another factor is when your training barely applies due to the circumstances you are in.

    We had to rejigger basic tactical convoy training to get us through a certain mission we ran for 4 months in Iraq in the summer of 2003. Essentially we had to get a 10,000 gallon water bladder to a water purification station so that our little outpost by the MSR could have water for the week.

    We had 4 vehicles in our 'convoy': 2 hummers with one that had a door SAW mount and the other with M16A2 door mounts (sarcasm), a stripped down 5-Ton with a broken MK 19, and the bladder trailer also with M16 door mounts.

    The two routes to the water station were, to put it nicely, good training on how to dodge incoming rounds with vehicles through narrow corridors in overcrowded market streets (never mind the missing manhole covers on said streets). We were in either open desert or trucking as fast as we could through little towns with above mentioned streets. We had no additional cover due to MPs being already maxed out with convoy escort duties on the MSR. The whole route was about 80km in total.

    So, it was just us, running around in Indian country with nothing but very basic equipment and training, and a busted MK 19. We always completed the mission and never lost anyone. This I can attribute to our ability to improvise and adapt and a whole lot of luck.

    Within context of this thread, I think that most people buy the gear and weapons that they have in classes to either look cool and tactical or because they are inexperienced and bought what internet marketing told them to buy.

    In Iraq, the most important things that we had were our minds and experience in assimilating our gear, one example being the broken MK 19 which was with us just for the show of strength. Not having ever attended a civi run class, but reading lots of AARs on these classes and reading the experiences in this thread, it seems that most students quickly find out that the game is not about gear, but about being able to adapt the most useful gear in the most essential ways, which often factors out the expensive bells and whistles they wore on themselves and on their weapons.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

  3. #293
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    Re: M16/M4/AR15 VS Other. Are we making rational decisions?

    Excellent thread!

  4. #294
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    What do you all think is the least/most essential add on for your rifle?

    For me, it's optics without which I can't hit a thing as my eyes are no longer adequate for using iron sights, even with glasses...the least essential is probably the sling, without which rifle work is a lot more labor intensive ...

  5. #295
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    Most and least essential from a list of what components? I'd start with quality feeding devices as most essential, and engraved ejection port covers as least essential.

    If we're talking the usual trifecta of light, sling and RDS, I think much depends upon the shooter and his environment. I'd prefer not to have to do without all three, since taken together, they provide the more flexibility for more potential roles than just about anything else. You know you can hit it. You know you can see it. You know you will still have the weapon with you (and a free hand or two, if needed) when you get to wherever it is that all of this is going down.

    AC
    Stand your ground; don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here. -- Captain John Parker, Lexington, 1775.

  6. #296
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    Army Chief,

    "If we're talking the usual trifecta of light, sling and RDS" - this...

    Sorry, I wasn't clear.

    Engraved ejection port covers aren't something I was aware of people getting, until now and why would they? For proprietary reasons or simply desiring some art work?

    By quality feeding devices I'm guessing you mean magazines?

    The only name I'm familiar with in magazines is the Pmag, but I would guess there are others that are considered good quality though I couldn't name one.

    Can you tell I'm new to AR's in general?

    Many moons ago, I was in the Army Infantry, MOS 11C10, 81 MM Mortars. I trained with the M-14 and never touched an M16.

    I'm making up for lost time.

  7. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abraham View Post
    Engraved ejection port covers aren't something I was aware of people getting, until now and why would they? For proprietary reasons or simply desiring some art work?
    It's just a silly personalization thing. Same basic idea as vanity plates on a car for the most part. Most of them appeal to me about as much as a bad tattoo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abraham View Post
    By quality feeding devices I'm guessing you mean magazines?
    Right. The PMAG is an easy -- and solid -- choice for most, as are quality aluminum USGI/contractor mags. This is hardly rocket science, but as with any semi-automatic firearm, the most likely point of failure lies with poorly-constructed or maintained magazines. Buy based on what you know of the manufacturer and quality standards, rather than by price. This is not the place to save a buck and roll the dice on mags of dubious origin or condition.

    If you're of a certain vintage to where presbyopia has set in a bit (as I am), then I can see where you would view optics as a priority. I do not disagree. On the other hand, a sling is not an especially costly investment, and even a high-quality light can be had for $200 or less, so there is no practical reason not to adopt all three. And stop there.

    AC
    Stand your ground; don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here. -- Captain John Parker, Lexington, 1775.

  8. #298
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    Army Chief,

    Thanks for the advice.

    I need it.

    I've got the beginnings of cataracts in both eyes. I was advised I would surgery for it in 6 months to 3 years.

    We'll see...

  9. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Chief View Post
    It's just a silly personalization thing. Same basic idea as vanity plates on a car for the most part. Most of them appeal to me about as much as a bad tattoo.

    AC
    About the only reason I can think of for this is when you have similar uppers in different calibers, i.e., 5.56, 6.8, 300BLK. An ejection port with inexpensive caliber engraving is a thoughtful touch.

    All other types of EP engraving is just going full retard.

  10. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abraham View Post
    Army Chief,

    Thanks for the advice.

    I need it.

    I've got the beginnings of cataracts in both eyes. I was advised I would surgery for it in 6 months to 3 years.

    We'll see...
    This is off topic but germane to your post - don't put it off.

    I had both eyes rapidly develop cataracts due to a reaction to medication - had them fixed and went from being legally blind without glasses (I'd worn glasses since I was 5) to perfect uncorrected vision although I still need to wear reading glasses.

    As I said, I wouldn't wait.

    Good luck.

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