Transitioning to support/weak shoulder

[Arctic1]

Ok guys, this has probably been discussed before at one point or another, but what are your thoughts on transitioning from strong side to weak/support side when shooting your long gun?

I have mixed feelings on the issue. I see an application for it when you are going to shoot from a barricade or support, but I don't like it for entering and clearing rooms or movement. I feel I give up too much in accuracy compared to what supposed benefit it provides in regards to utilizing cover/concealment.

I am not saying that you should not practice shooting from your support side, but I am talking real world application.

Would appreciate some thoughts and different perspectives on this subject.

Thanks

[Moltke]

Real world application?

You should take every advantage with guns, gear, and especially technique. Be proficient at shooting weak side so when you need to do it, you can. There may be times when it is the right thing to do. Otherwise, play to your strengths and shoot strong side.

[Failure2Stop]

While I prefer to primarily have the long-gun on my right side, I train to be able to effectively employ the rifle/carbine from the support side for those times that the situation favors it. Better to have the gun in position to gain the advantage than to have to find it from a position of disadvantage. One of those aspects is clearing tight cover/obstacles.

However; if you cannot out-perform the task from the dominant side by switching to the support side, it is better to stay on the preferred side.

While I believe that one should be comfortable and proficient from either shoulder, either hand, and either eye, does not mean anyone else's training priorities match mine. Saying that, my operative word is "comfort", not "equal proficiency"; it is time and resource intensive to get the support side to the same level of proficiency as the dominant side. It takes far less to gain an acceptable level of proficiency/comfort. My priority goes to the most likely need; focused on dominant side overall proficiency, as equal as possible proficiency at 50 meters and under, high proficiency at long range from the dominant side, and ability to be effective from cover/support from either side inside 200 meters.

[SpeedRacer]

You can train away your perceived issues with transitioning to the support side. It's not a matter of is one technique better than the other, there's NEVER a good reason not to maximize cover. It's simply a choice to not put in the effort.

[Arctic1]

While I prefer to primarily have the long-gun on my right side, I train to be able to effectively employ the rifle/carbine from the support side for those times that the situation favors it. Better to have the gun in position to gain the advantage than to have to find it from a position of disadvantage. One of those aspects is clearing tight cover/obstacles.

However; if you cannot out-perform the task from the dominant side by switching to the support side, it is better to stay on the preferred side.

While I believe that one should be comfortable and proficient from either shoulder, either hand, and either eye, does not mean anyone else's training priorities match mine. Saying that, my operative word is "comfort", not "equal proficiency"; it is time and resource intensive to get the support side to the same level of proficiency as the dominant side. It takes far less to gain an acceptable level of proficiency/comfort. My priority goes to the most likely need; focused on dominant side overall proficiency, as equal as possible proficiency at 50 meters and under, high proficiency at long range from the dominant side, and ability to be effective from cover/support from either side inside 200 meters.

I don't disagree with what you put forth here.

Just a quick question regarding what I highlighted in bold; are you focusing solely on high probability shots here, or low probability as well?

[Arctic1]

Real world application?

You should take every advantage with guns, gear, and especially technique. Be proficient at shooting weak side so when you need to do it, you can. There may be times when it is the right thing to do. Otherwise, play to your strengths and shoot strong side.

Yes, real world application; would you actually switch shoulders prior to entering a room?

As I stated, I do not imply that being able to shoot from the, for me as a righty, left shoulder is a bad skill to have or that you should not practice it.

That said, when stacking on a room (for example), does it really provide a benefit to switch shoulders? I have never had to enter a room with a real bad guy in it, but I have tried entering from the right side of a doorway with the weapon mounted in either shoulder when doing MOUT training. I cannot really discern what I "lose" by having the gun mounted in my strong shoulder, even though TTP's state to switch.

[Arctic1]

You can train away your perceived issues with transitioning to the support side. It's not a matter of is one technique better than the other, there's NEVER a good reason not to maximize cover. It's simply a choice to not put in the effort.

What constitutes cover though? Most of the time what you are behind is mere concealment. Is it more important to hide a small part of your body, and possibly miss, or accept a bit more exposure for a higher percentage to actually hit and neutralize the threat?

Regarding training away perceived issues with weak side shooting, and that it's not an option to not put in the effort. That is a feasable approach if most of what you do relates to shooting. With MIL, there are so many other areas that you would need to train on and be proficient in. There are only so many hours a day, and days in the week.

Granted, you can dry fire some of the aspects of transitioning and weak side shooting, but with a busy schedule, what do you prioritize when doing live fire training?

[Arctic1]

A bit more from me, for context.

I have been debating this issue over the years, and tried using both shoulders when entering rooms during MOUT training; as I said previously, never had to enter a room with an armed bad guy in it. I cannot discern any notable benefit when passing through the door from shouldering the rifle on my left side, vs the right, except a crappier accuracy.


Then I read this article the other day, and the comment by Tom Spooner prompted me to start a thread on this:


http://www.guns.com/2013/04/16/defen...room-clearing/

"Some people can switch hands and shoot incredibly well, but it takes a lot of practice and, on the professional level, literally hundreds of thousands of rounds. Even then, they might not be able to do it under stress. That’s why when the question was posed to Tom Spooner, a former Delta Force member and co-founder of Invictus Alliance Group, he explained that some people might be able to switch hands or switch sides (bilateral shooting) well, but that he never has done so in any tactical scenario."


I know that many of the well known instructors out there advocate learning how to shoot weak/support side, and as I stated above I think you need to work on it. I am just curious as to how applicable it is outside of working around cover/barricades etc.

[Failure2Stop]

Just a quick question regarding what I highlighted in bold; are you focusing solely on high probability shots here, or low probability as well?

To me, it means every marksmanship task, from high percentage upper torso at 3 meters to precision placement at 100 meters, from standing, kneeling, barricade, and unconventional/awkward positions.

I have drills that I like to run that puts the shooter into support-side shoulder use immediately following dominant side use to help in skill improvement.


ETA: I am not necessarily a proponent of switching shoulders in anticipation of entry in team-based enclosure clearing for one reason: the 1 man is always right. If he happens to hook when I expected to him to cross and I stuck my gun in my left shoulder in anticipation of that, and then wind up going left, I put myself into a position where I am going to be slower into the corner, from my slightly slower side, or try to switch shoulders while clearing the immediate area. I believe this to be more of a TTP issue than a marksmanship issue.

However, if I am getting ready to barricade a right side corner, clear additional furniture/small spaces inside the enclosure, work the left side of a vehicle, or work enclosures/confined spaces solo, there is advantage and opportunity to support side proficiency. Lots of folks get drawn into "CQB", forgetting that it actually only represents like 10% of actual fighting. AGree that it's 10% that gets really f**king nasty if you do it wrong, but it's also 85% TTPs that win or lose the fight.

[Clint]

Ok guys, this has probably been discussed before at one point or another, but what are your thoughts on transitioning from strong side to weak/support side when shooting your long gun?

"Weak side"?

I though it was called "your OTHER strong side"!