Transitioning to support/weak shoulder

[T2C]

I don't like to limit myself to training just one way. I train off both side with handguns, rifles and shotguns, because I want to maximize my ability with the firearm. I am not a proponent of switching shoulders for room entry and I can't recall anyone doing it before entering a room. We do teach it to the rank and file though, so they can make maximize use of available cover.

Switching shoulders is part of one of the stages for carbine training and qualifications and we use to hear a lot of complaining about it's application. I was assisting with training a group of roughly 30 people when a veteran asked when the technique would ever be used. My response was that the carbine shoots as well while you are laying on your side or back as it does while you are standing. I asked if a carbine operator was right handed and found themself laying on their left side, what shoulder would they shoot off of when returning fire from underneath a vehicle. The unanimous response was the left side.

I am a firm believer that if you are training outside your comfort zone at least part of the time, you are doing it correctly.

[C4IGrant]

Ok guys, this has probably been discussed before at one point or another, but what are your thoughts on transitioning from strong side to weak/support side when shooting your long gun?

I have mixed feelings on the issue. I see an application for it when you are going to shoot from a barricade or support, but I don't like it for entering and clearing rooms or movement. I feel I give up too much in accuracy compared to what supposed benefit it provides in regards to utilizing cover/concealment.

I am not saying that you should not practice shooting from your support side, but I am talking real world application.

Would appreciate some thoughts and different perspectives on this subject.

Thanks

Good question. I think we have to break the question down into two different groups. They are Single Man Defensive Room Clearing (or barrier utilization) and Team Offensive/Hybrid/Combat Clearing (two men or more).

I have been taught in Single man room clearing to switch shoulders, hands and eyes (as I have all the time in the world and need to utilize what ever form of cover I have available). The exception to this rule would be that I hear a family member screaming at the other end of the house (which is most likely where the threat is). Then every doorway gets a gun pointed in it as I quickly move to that room.

With Team entry (two or more) there is no switching shoulders if we are coming into a room dynamically. The exception to this rule would be that we are doing the more modern "hybrid" room clearing. In this instance (as I have some time available to me), I would consider switching shoulders.

As pointed out by several folks in this thread if you are a crappy shooter with your weak eye or hand, don't do it! There are some people that absolutely cannot use their non-dominant eye.

I do practice weak hand/eye shooting and am fairly good at it mostly because I somewhat ambidextrous (both eyes and hands).

NOTE: I have no operational experience with any of this and am simply pass along what I have been taught by people that do.



C4

[QuietOne]

First a couple of points. Don't limit yourself MENTALLY. You don't know what the fight's going to be. The fight is going to be what it is going to be. This weekend I was at a Larry Vickers class on Home e Defense at King33 in Connecticut. This class was about room clearing as a single person, not team tactics. Larry said if you are going to switch hands the long gun is the way to go. He was less of a fan of doing it with your pistol. The students were discussing it while getting waiting to run the drills. Most people chose to do the last exercise with a pistol only and strong hand. One of the instructors from King33, Henry, showed a group of us techniques for clearing with a long gun and switching hands, also to point shoot with the long gun held under the armpit. I was very skeptical of point shooting in this way. Henry also ran a drill with us that showed the the bad guy TONS of your body doing that strong hand versus weak hand. The difference was really amazing. I chose to do it with a Simunitions M4 I had never held let alone fired. Long story short, no problems switching shoulders or point shooting from the underarm position. Even though this was a Simunitions class,Vickers and the AI's were after us for any accuracy infractions. I do practice shooting a carbine weak hand. But it's not more than 5% of my time or ammunition. It is something I should practice more.

[SpeedRacer]

What constitutes cover though? Most of the time what you are behind is mere concealment. Is it more important to hide a small part of your body, and possibly miss, or accept a bit more exposure for a higher percentage to actually hit and neutralize the threat?

Regarding training away perceived issues with weak side shooting, and that it's not an option to not put in the effort. That is a feasable approach if most of what you do relates to shooting. With MIL, there are so many other areas that you would need to train on and be proficient in. There are only so many hours a day, and days in the week.

Granted, you can dry fire some of the aspects of transitioning and weak side shooting, but with a busy schedule, what do you prioritize when doing live fire training?

I see what you're getting at and better understand the point you're making. Still, I don't view it as a choice, more of an imposed limitation. I agree, if your weak side and transition skills are that poor, then some scenarios you could be better off not attempting it. It's not the correct choice persay, but moreso a compromise based on limitations.

So the more important aspect of the question is how much emphasis should be placed on weak side and transistion training. For me personally, the answer is a lot. I'd rather practice what I'm not good at than reconfirm skills I already have, as gratifying as it may be. When training or practicing, I actually try to do more weak side work than strong side. That is of course assuming someone is at least competent with their strong side. As a civilian, any firefight I find myself in will most certainly be defensive/reactionary...meaning I don't get to choose the playing field or circumstances. I'd rather have all the bases covered.

[Moltke]

If it is tactically the right thing to do, then you should train yourself to be able technically do it.

[RogerinTPA]

If it is tactically the right thing to do, then you should train yourself to be able technically do it.

Agreed. It's the reason I practice support side shooting, mag changes and manipulations at every range session, sometimes shooting an entire session wrong handed. I also like to stick with instructors that incorporates the use of support side shooting in training scenarios.

[Arctic1]

If it is tactically the right thing to do, then you should train yourself to be able technically do it.

That statement is sort of my point though; who decides that it is tactically correct, and then implements it as a TTP?

Take room clearing as part of MOUT (I have never trained for HR or any HSLD QCB type stuff). I know the correct battle drill, and I know how to shoot.

Our TTPs state that when we stack up on the right side of the door, we are supposed to switch shoulders if we are right handed. Same for LH shooters when stacking up on the left side. The argument FOR this TTP is improved cover/concealment vs keeping it strong side.

I have way better results on target or role players when sticking with my strong side. Could training help? Possibly. Is it worth allocating training time to improving a TTP that only provides a marginal benefit at best?

As I said, I see the application wrt barricades/support/cover positions. That is a bit easier though, when compared to shooting off-hand, on the move against possible moving or low percentage targets (behind cover etc).

[Moltke]

That statement is sort of my point though; who decides that it is tactically correct, and then implements it as a TTP?

Take room clearing as part of MOUT (I have never trained for HR or any HSLD QCB type stuff). I know the correct battle drill, and I know how to shoot.

Our TTPs state that when we stack up on the right side of the door, we are supposed to switch shoulders if we are right handed. Same for LH shooters when stacking up on the left side. The argument FOR this TTP is improved cover/concealment vs keeping it strong side.

I have way better results on target or role players when sticking with my strong side. Could training help? Possibly. Is it worth allocating training time to improving a TTP that only provides a marginal benefit at best?

As I said, I see the application wrt barricades/support/cover positions. That is a bit easier though, when compared to shooting off-hand, on the move against possible moving or low percentage targets (behind cover etc).

If you are going to be clearing rooms and buildings, and you're expected to shoot weak side 0-25 yards, then you should train to do that proficiently - or make sure you're the guy in line with your gun facing the "right" direction. Ha!

[Failure2Stop]

If it is tactically the right thing to do, then you should train yourself to be able technically do it.

Boom.
Well said.


Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

[Failure2Stop]

Our TTPs state that when we stack up on the right side of the door, we are supposed to switch shoulders if we are right handed. Same for LH shooters when stacking up on the left side. The argument FOR this TTP is improved cover/concealment vs keeping it strong side.

I can't be absolute in my statement as I am not familiar with the totality of your enclosure TTPs, so take it for what it is worth, but I would disagree with the switching of shoulders based on what side of the door you are on and would instead base that decision on what you are going to be doing at the entry point.



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