Making the switch to a P30?

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

I carry a G17 w/X300 as my duty pistol. It has the Apex Extractor because I had problems with it extracting reliably at first. Over maybe 1000 rounds (800 after the extractor change) I have witnessed it stovepipe twice in the hands of other shooters, but never my own (just don't trust it as much as I would like to). I also have medium sized hands, and find the block grip to be bothersome, thus leading me to consider having an expensive grip reduction done. Beyond all of that, the esteemed Colorado leaders have deemed that NO ONE (including LEO's) can buy magazines over 15 rounds, which means I can't find mags anywhere anymore (and you ****ers won't send them to me either, thanks ). With all that said, I shoot Glocks fairly well, have trained with them for quite some time, and have plenty of magazines, duty gear, and holsters for them.

In January I will have the opportunity to switch duty firearms to one of my choice. My agency issues the M&P 9MM, but I have never been enthused with it, especially since you can't find magazines for them anywhere. They also allow Glock, Springfield XD/M, Colt, Ruger, and HK. Not being happy with my Glocks lately, and seeing nothing but utter reliability out of the HK line, Ive started to set my sights on the HK P30 9MM.

I went down to the LGS where that had a P30L V3 and P30S V3, each for $999. Holding the pistol was almost euphoric as I had never gripped a firearm that fit me as well as P30 did. It pointed naturally as well, something that I never felt like my Glocks did as well as my old P220. AND THEN I TRIED THE TRIGGER OUT...and was disappointed to say the least. The DA pull was pretty bad, smooth, but just really long and heavy. The SA pull after the reset was crisp on the break but had quite a bit of pre travel. I did like the ability to carry cocked and locked with the safety on, however the LGS employee in his infinite wisdom said it was ill advised and dangerous to do so (how true his statement was I do not know, but I can't see any other reason to have a safety on a DA/SA pistol with a decocker). I wish they had a V1 in stock so I could try out the "light" LEM, but alas they did not, and no range stocks them meaning if do make a purchase I will have never actually shot one more than a few dry fires.

So, long story short:

am I gaining more reliability out of the P30 than I am the Glock?
are there viable Level III duty holster options for the P30/S/L?
is the trigger that bad or do I just need time behind it?
Will the P30S fit in a standard P30 holster?
Is the V1 similar to a "glock" trigger, or is the V3 the better option?
Is carrying it cocked and locked a bad idea or a valid way to carry?

Would you make this trade if money were not an option?

[Kyohte]

am I gaining more reliability out of the P30 than I am the Glock?
are there viable Level III duty holster options for the P30/S/L?
is the trigger that bad or do I just need time behind it?
Will the P30S fit in a standard P30 holster?
Is the V1 similar to a "glock" trigger, or is the V3 the better option?
Is carrying it cocked and locked a bad idea or a valid way to carry?

Would you make this trade if money were not an option?

My P30s (plural, no S model) have been completely reliable. Of course, my Glock Gen 3 19 made in May 13 has been equally reliable (though through a less than half the number of rounds so far).

See Safariland, I think they have a level III.

The trigger isn't bad, but if you're not used to a traditional double action or LEM then it will take getting used to.

Depends. The P30S safety lever will interfere with holsters that have a sweat guard or similar.

I have V1 and V2 LEM triggers and a V3. I would like something between the two (V4) but haven't set one up yet. Between V1 and V3, I find V1 the better option.

Carrying the P30S cocked and locked is fine.

As for the last part, I am not an LEO, so consider that with everything I've said.

[DanjojoUSMC]

You will probably be best with a V1 if all you have been shooting the past few years is Glock. If you do a google search for "nyeti LEM street trigger" you can find a pretty good write up on it's merits. I like them right after traditional DA/SA as favorites.

I doubt I would do well in a real world situation with an injured strong hand trying to instinctively activate the p30's thumb safety and get off rounds. LEM lighter set ups are basically SA anyways, you just have the long trigger return spring take-up initially and ability to holster/administrative handle with hammer down and thumb on hammer.

[walkin' trails]

I had good experiences with Glock and the M&Ps, but I am also a proponent of an officer carrying a pistol they are comfortable and confident with. If the P30 fits you, then that's a good start. As you are used to the Glock-trigger, the LEM might be your best bet, however, the traditional DA/SA is not that hard to getused to if you're going to train. I went from Glocks to a SIG P228 years ago and had no trouble. I couldn't shoot the 228 as well, but it was the shape of the grip and the way it fit my hand rather than the action. Since you are going to train with this pistol, including a dry fire regiment, you can get used to it if that's what you're planning to live with. Find out of H&K has any LE sales program and you may not have to pay all that money. As far as being more reliable; again you have to have confidence with your pistol. If a P30 is more reliable for you than anything else you've used, then it's worth it. I still haven't experiences the Glock problems you described, and someone else having a stove pipe with my pistol is not a concern as long as it doesn't happen to me. Anyway, hope it works out for you.

[mrvip27]

Good read here. Straight from a guy with experience as an LEO.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/8549

[arcticlightfighter]

I am heavily considering a 9mm P30 Light LEM for my new duty pistol.

I have not fired one yet however, handling the it and dry firing I have been very impressed. Subjective only at this point, but with the reviews written by Nyeti and TLG, I am convinced that with the appropriate amount of transition training, I would be happy with it.

[DanjojoUSMC]

Walkin' trails, personally I would have issues with someone else shooting my pistol and having it not function right. Rushed grip or injured grip situation you have no promises of a pistol functioning that doesn't tolerate a poor grip noobie. This is well known, seldom admitted characteristic for Glocks but they sell enough that most don't seem to mind. Always wonder why it's not part of LE T&E protocals.

[Psalms144.1]

LSHD - I had a similar conundrum back in early 2012, after my fifth G19 crapped the bed straight out of the box. I picked up a P30 with the "heavy" (then standard) LEM, in 9mm, as a replacement. Shortly thereafter, I fell into a lightly used P2000 9mm LEM. I changed the FPBS on both to get the "TLG" version of the LEM - lighter pull weight, but stronger reset. Unfortunately, to date, I have not had the opportunity to test the "Light" LEM - though I'm tempted. Around the same time, my old team started transitioning from issued G19s to issued HK 45CTs, with the DA/SA/Decock only trigger (can't keep the version numbers straight, sorry about that!) These are my observations:

1. The P30's ergonomics are exceptional - best of any pistol I've ever owned or held, and the ability to mix & match grip elements really lets you customize your grip exactly how you like it.

2. The P30 is not terribly size efficient - the grip is G17 length, but holds 2 fewer rounds, and the barrel/sight radius are shortish. As an open-carry "duty" pistol, I would DEFINITELY opt for the P30L, which can be found at any number of decent LE dealers (and commercial dealers) for less than the price you listed. You don't NEED the extra barrel and sight radius, but there's no reason not to have them, given the longish grip length.

3. The P30's slide release levers are ridiculously long, so you WILL have to adjust your grip to avoid accidentally activating them, leading to a slide-forward-on-empty-chamber scenario. You can replace them with the slide release levers on the P30S, which are shorter, but they're still "in the way," IMHO.

4. The LEM trigger on the P30 is the "worst" execution of the LEM, IMHO. The take up is smooth, light, and long (though not excessively so), but then it hits a SIGNIFICANT "wall." This wall causes a lot of new LEM shooters, including myself, to "stage" the trigger - pulling quickly through the takeup to the "wall" and then "snatching" when the sight picture is perfect - leading to sub-optimal results. Please note, I have NOT, tried the "light" LEM, so this might be a whole different ball of wax. The reset on the LEM is long-ish - if you're a long time Glock shooter, you may be disappointed in how long - but you can definitely train through it. I did, and my split times with the standard LEM are, for all intents and purposes, indistinguishable now with what I could do with the Glock that I carried for over seven years.

5. The DA/SA on the HK45CT was atrocious - the DA pull on mine had to be AT LEAST 14 pounds, and gritty. The reset was reasonable, with minimal pre-travel before the SA trigger broke, which it did relatively cleanly. Because these were issued weapons, we were not allowed to alter them, or I would have swapped that decock-only lever to a safety only or safety-decock; and carried the pistol cocked & locked.

6. Reliability - all of the HKs I've handled have been dead-nuts reliable; boringly, predictably reliable - despite thousands of rounds with no cleaning or lube, being fed a variety of crappy (sometimes foreign produced) ammunition, etc.

7. Accuracy - this is where the HKs TRULY shine. I'm a pretty good pistol shot - nowhere near the ability of some of the top competitive shooters, but I'm no slouch. I've also had the pleasure of having the government pay to send me to NUMEROUS high-end "name" firearms training courses with my G19s, which have really "polished" my skills. In the four years leading up to 2012, I shot an average of 7-10K rounds per year through my G19s in training. Having said all that, I can shoot rings around my Glocks with any of my HKs - a difference which REALLY becomes noticeable at extended ranges or on "low probability" targets. The accuracy difference STILL surprises the heck out of me, even after a year of dedicated carry with the HK. This accuracy has greatly increased my confidence in my shooting skills - 25 yard off hand head shots are now any "easy day" as opposed to a "I think I can" moment...

8. Overall - I work primarily in plain clothes, so, for me, the P2000 (which I actually shoot slightly better than my P30, for no reason I can determine) has become my "go to" pistol. Were I in your shoes, I would opt for the P30L, and I would get the light LEM. As stated above, the LEM isn't a perfect trigger, and, if you're going to shoot standing flat-footed at a large target at close range against a good Glock shooter, he'll probably outdo your splits by .02-.03 seconds per shot; but when you're trying to make your shots COUNT, the P30's accuracy is going to bring home the bacon. You just have to know going in that you'll need to get on the horn to HK USA and get a set of "S" slide release levers; and invest in some snap caps and start dry firing the crap out of the pistol before you take it on the street. It took me about two weeks of dry-firing 30-60 minutes per day to train myself into making the LEM pull a continuous, smooth stroke instead of a "stack and jerk" - and if I can figure it out, any competent pistoleer can...

9. Options - the standard "luminova" sights blow chunks - get set to drop some coin on decent NS and the 'smith to install them. Unlike a year or two ago, there are plenty of decent options out there - though, sadly, Ameriglo STILL refuses to make "CAP" sights for the P30 or P2000. Magazines are usually fairly easy to find, and, while more expensive than Glock mags, still not ridiculous. There should be any number of holster makes who should be able to meet your needs; Safariland in particular makes a light-mounted version for the P30L.

Hope this helps, feel free to ask any follow-ups you need...

Regards,

Kevin

[mrvip27]

I think its important to note that the P30 Lem trigger is quite different feeling/functioning than the HK45/c and USP lem variants. (reset length, etc.) I believe the HK45 and USP are modular.

Correct me if I am wrong.

[YVK]

am I gaining more reliability out of the P30 than I am the Glock?
are there viable Level III duty holster options for the P30/S/L?
is the trigger that bad or do I just need time behind it?
Will the P30S fit in a standard P30 holster?
Is the V1 similar to a "glock" trigger, or is the V3 the better option?
Is carrying it cocked and locked a bad idea or a valid way to carry?

Would you make this trade if money were not an option?

No. You're shooting Glock well, you have gear and support for it and it has been reliable in your hands. What else do you need?

Gun feeling great in your hands is pleasant, but not indicative of how well or poorly you're going to shoot it.

Reliability, I would say even between the two based on personal experience. My P30 broke a trigger return spring well below recommended maintenance interval. Twice. I know of many others who had this happen. Some P30 guns had issue with ejection and have been suggested to have a break in period, something I personally consider a nonsense. So, despite a negative rep that Glocks have received recently, I don't think this is a decisive win for P30.

Potential negatives: quite a few very good shooters couldn't get to their expected level of performance with LEM and gave up, you'll likely have issues with slide stop interference if you went non-S option (be sure your agency allows for firearms modifications), expensive mags, less sights options, suboptimal DA/SA.

I think that two valid reasons to switch would be if you wanted to learn a new system and don't mind time and performance decline for a bit, or if you wanted a higher safety margin with longer trigger pull and hammer down design, and benefit of self-decocking with LEM.