NYPD - 3 shots - 2 bystanders hit

[Peshawar]

Yep New your + connectors comes out to be a hard and heavy 12 pound pull.
Pat

Obviously they need a heavier connector so that this tragedy never happens again!

Do I hear 20 lbs?

[SteyrAUG]

Lets see we have crowded city environments, officers with around 8 hours of firearms training per year and 12 pound pulls on their Glocks and you don't expect this to happen sometimes?

I think the lack of firearms training and standards is key. The fact that most grew up without a firearms background probably makes a huge difference as well.

I'm gonna dismiss crowded city and Glock trigger pulls.

I remember when Miami, which was pretty crowded, had the cocaine gang wars in the early 80s. This was basically cops vs. assholes with Mac 10s in a crowed public place. Amazingly the cops managed to shoot bad guys more than bystanders (the FBI shootout notwithstanding).

And I remember when revolvers and DA autos were the order of the day. They seemed to do just fine with them. In fact if they took their Glocks away they'd probably learn how to shoot.

The problem is LEOs with zero firearms experience, inadequate training and low qualification requirements. I also suspect there are some ridiculous shooting policies which prevent NY cops from having "real world" shooting experience out of fear of the investigation to follow.

[glocktogo]

Lets see we have crowded city environments, officers with around 8 hours of firearms training per year and 12 pound pulls on their Glocks and you don't expect this to happen sometimes?

Question is, why don't NYC pols and administrators expect this and f'ing DO SOMETHING about it? It's a blatant disregard for public safety.

[Alaskapopo]

I think the lack of firearms training and standards is key. The fact that most grew up without a firearms background probably makes a huge difference as well.

I'm gonna dismiss crowded city and Glock trigger pulls.

I remember when Miami, which was pretty crowded, had the cocaine gang wars in the early 80s. This was basically cops vs. assholes with Mac 10s in a crowed public place. Amazingly the cops managed to shoot bad guys more than bystanders (the FBI shootout notwithstanding).

And I remember when revolvers and DA autos were the order of the day. They seemed to do just fine with them. In fact if they took their Glocks away they'd probably learn how to shoot.

The problem is LEOs with zero firearms experience, inadequate training and low qualification requirements. I also suspect there are some ridiculous shooting policies which prevent NY cops from having "real world" shooting experience out of fear of the investigation to follow.

I agree with you on the training. Training is the biggest factor in hitting what your aiming at and making the correct choice to shoot. But I suspect if a lot more police shootings in smaller locals happened around bystanders their would be more hit. Its just a matter of density. If you miss in a small town with no one in the line of fire no big deal in the city however your much more likely to hit someone you did not intend. Either way its best to hit what your aiming at.
Pat

[SteyrAUG]

I agree with you on the training. Training is the biggest factor in hitting what your aiming at and making the correct choice to shoot. But I suspect if a lot more police shootings in smaller locals happened around bystanders their would be more hit. Its just a matter of density. If you miss in a small town with no one in the line of fire no big deal in the city however your much more likely to hit someone you did not intend. Either way its best to hit what your aiming at.
Pat

Of course population density increases likelihood of hitting a bystander. And I'm not here to give small town cops who can't shoot a pass. But given population densities, the training standards for places like NYC, LA and other major cities should be the highest.

Instead of spending the money on redesigning uniforms, pointless programs and all the other bottom priority projects that those in power regularly flush money on they should make sure everyone who carries a gun is trained well enough to not be an undue risk to the population they serve.

Maybe if this got the same priority as saving people from Big Gulps this sort of thing wouldn't happen. Imagine if that money was spent on regular range time for officers.

[Alaskapopo]

Of course population density increases likelihood of hitting a bystander. And I'm not here to give small town cops who can't shoot a pass. But given population densities, the training standards for places like NYC, LA and other major cities should be the highest.

Instead of spending the money on redesigning uniforms, pointless programs and all the other bottom priority projects that those in power regularly flush money on they should make sure everyone who carries a gun is trained well enough to not be an undue risk to the population they serve.

Maybe if this got the same priority as saving people from Big Gulps this sort of thing wouldn't happen. Imagine if that money was spent on regular range time for officers.

Won't get an argument from me on that one. I just got through running my officers through a 10 hour firearm arms training I put together and ended up donating about 300 rounds or my own ammo so they could all complete it. I managed to do some scheduling magic so their was no over time as well. With current budgets its hard as hell to get overtime for training and money for supplies like ammo is tough as well.
Pat

[Honu]

maybe they should limit each officer to one bullet

that should solve the problem of to many bystanders being shot

after all you only need ONE shot

[SteyrAUG]

Won't get an argument from me on that one. I just got through running my officers through a 10 hour firearm arms training I put together and ended up donating about 300 rounds or my own ammo so they could all complete it. I managed to do some scheduling magic so their was no over time as well. With current budgets its hard as hell to get overtime for training and money for supplies like ammo is tough as well.
Pat

That combined with a strong firearms tradition in your state should serve your officers well.

I suspect we could take two dozen NYC LEOs and swap them out with two dozen LEOs from places in AK, TN, SC, MT and WY and the transplanted officers would perform much better in the same NYC shootings and the NYC officers in question would still have many of the same problems in any shooting anywhere.

NYC is inherently anti gun, and to an extent that transfers ever to LEOs. There are powers in place that want to satisfy "training requirements" but at the same time don't want to be seen as producing "trained killers" in uniform. As incomprehensible as that sounds, it wouldn't be the first time I've heard a LEO reference the problem and it being justification to not "carbine qualify" officers or send them to places like Blackwater for training.

[Alaskapopo]

That combined with a strong firearms tradition in your state should serve your officers well.

I suspect we could take two dozen NYC LEOs and swap them out with two dozen LEOs from places in AK, TN, SC, MT and WY and the transplanted officers would perform much better in the same NYC shootings and the NYC officers in question would still have many of the same problems in any shooting anywhere.

NYC is inherently anti gun, and to an extent that transfers ever to LEOs. There are powers in place that want to satisfy "training requirements" but at the same time don't want to be seen as producing "trained killers" in uniform. As incomprehensible as that sounds, it wouldn't be the first time I've heard a LEO reference the problem and it being justification to not "carbine qualify" officers or send them to places like Blackwater for training.

Lost some respect for New York LEO's this summer. There was a Trooper conference up here and so happens one of the New York State Troopers was speeding and got a ticket from an Alaska State trooper. We are not that big on professional courtesy up here especially when its demanded. Anyway at the conference the New York guys are giving s peaches about how they would not stop to help a Alaska State Trooper getting his ass kicked on the side of the road. Its one thing to say that in the locker room which is bad enough but another to say it for the whole world to hear on the podium. A comment was made would you arrest another officer if he was drinking and driving and the answer up here is yes. Apparent that response floored the New York guys. I don't care if I hate another officers guts if he calls for back up I am going and I expect the same from all cops.

[Mac5.56]

That combined with a strong firearms tradition in your state should serve your officers well.

I suspect we could take two dozen NYC LEOs and swap them out with two dozen LEOs from places in AK, TN, SC, MT and WY and the transplanted officers would perform much better in the same NYC shootings and the NYC officers in question would still have many of the same problems in any shooting anywhere.

NYC is inherently anti gun, and to an extent that transfers ever to LEOs. There are powers in place that want to satisfy "training requirements" but at the same time don't want to be seen as producing "trained killers" in uniform. As incomprehensible as that sounds, it wouldn't be the first time I've heard a LEO reference the problem and it being justification to not "carbine qualify" officers or send them to places like Blackwater for training.

Yea but officers from those environments would probably have panic attacks dealing with a suspect in Time's Square where the population on those three or four city blocks on a Saturday night will exceed the population of the county they are from.

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head as always Steyr, it is a training issue combined with the way guns are looked at in the culture of NYC. I have a family member who is very high up in Murdoch's company (he got a retirement letter from President Bush Sr), it's safe to say that he is very conservative. He is also very anti gun, and so is his wife. It was a shock the first time they saw a photo of me shooting they reacted like all the "crazy libtards" everyone always talks about. The culture of NYC is very, very anti gun. This absolutely transfers over to the police officers, most of whom like you said have never held a gun before being hired.

I know there are a few NYPD officers on this board, we've talked before about various NY issues I wonder if they would be willing to chime in?

Personally I think that officers who are responding to areas like Time Square, Canal St., Union Square etc should be held to the same standards with a gun that Air Marshals are held to. If that requires that we have fewer of them but they are better trained so be it. The NYPD scares me, I don't feel safe when I am around them, especially in the tourist areas of the city.