How Does A Civ CCW Responder Not Get Shot By LEO During An Active Shooting Incident?

[SHIVAN]

Seven minutes response time from MPD SWAT today. You have several minutes unless for some odd reason there is some LE right there who will be responding to the same stimuli you are, and that person would understand YOU are not the "bad guy".

Well, you hope...

[T2C]

Don't have a gun in your hands when the police get there is the best way.

Calling 911 and giving your detailed description to the operator may help but I wouldn't count on it

That is sound advice. If you have a firearm in your hand when LEO arrives you have a very good chance of being shot. Make sure your hands are empty. If you holster a firearm, cover it up with your shirt tail before LEO sees you.

Information you give to a telecommunicator does not always reach field LEO. When the information does reach field LEO, the information usually sounds nothing like what you provided the telecommunicator.

Count on being ordered to the ground and handcuffed and you won't be surprised.

[Mac5.56]

I'm surprised none of you are advocating the "key in knuckles make a fist" approach to self defense...

Why is that?

Thanks for your thoughts everyone. This is pretty much what I have figured all along.

One thing I have been wondering lately is how often a citizen's actions have stopped possible active shooters? How many people have "drawn guns" in public in the last decade only to be subdued, attacked, or shot by civilians prior to LEO responding. We would never know if the incident stopped was just a "domestic" or a potential mass shooter because the event planned by the attacker and prevented by the responder never happened... Stopping something that may have been does not offer the best headlines so not much to report on by the media.

[Irish]

1. Make sure the threat is down.
2. Look for any other threats.
3. Holster weapon and conceal it.
4. Move away from the body (into a corner or some place you limit your exposure)
5. Call 911 and give a description of what you look like and what the bad guy looks like.
6. Have hands in the air! No sudden movements, etc.

This is exactly the same conclusion I've come to after giving the subject a lot of thought.

[djegators]

I'm surprised none of you are advocating the "key in knuckles make a fist" approach to self defense...

Why is that?

Thanks for your thoughts everyone. This is pretty much what I have figured all along.

One thing I have been wondering lately is how often a citizen's actions have stopped possible active shooters? How many people have "drawn guns" in public in the last decade only to be subdued, attacked, or shot by civilians prior to LEO responding. We would never know if the incident stopped was just a "domestic" or a potential mass shooter because the event planned by the attacker and prevented by the responder never happened... Stopping something that may have been does not offer the best headlines so not much to report on by the media.

Two incidents that come to mind. There was a guy with a rifle in a mall in Oregon, who after only a few shots fired, saw a ccw pull his gun. He then went into a hallway and killed himself. And there was a school shooting in Miss. where the shooter was detained by a principal who got a gun from his car. The shooter was leaving the high school and about to cross the street to enter a middle school. But you're right, these cases will never get the same attention.

[Army Chief]

Seems to me that if you have a gun in your hand, then you're pretty much asking to get shot -- or, at the very least, treated as a belligerent party. Best to barricade/evade and make sure you aren't brandishing a weapon when help arrives, as the confusion of the moment will surely influence the outcome, regardless of your intent.

In some ways, this brings to mind the whole hostage/prisoner recovery scenario in the military, where we are trained not to attempt to aid the rescue/assault team in any way, but instead to lay down flat, be totally-compliant and expect to be bagged and dragged from the scene until things can be sorted-out in a less-kinetic environment. No sense trying to play the hero and complicating things unnecessarily.

Things happen so quickly, and there are so many unknowns during an active response that nothing you say or do in the heat of the moment is really likely to influence the guy breaching the doorway and looking down his sights, trying to figure out if you are an active target or just a part of the landscape.

AC

[Crow Hunter]

I have thought about this a bunch.

Honestly, I don't see a "way out". If you decide to engage an active shooter threat, you should be prepared not only that you might be shot by the threat but you may also be shot by another CCW bystander or more likely a responding LEO.

Honestly.

Unless I am directly defending myself or those within my immediate vicinity, I am moving to escape/evade and let the uniformed police do their job. I will give "overwatch", as in moving obviously unarmed people out of harms way and to safety, while I try to keep an eye out for the shooter. I am not qualified or trained enough to go "hunting" for an active shooter.

If I am backed into a corner, a room I can't escape or if given a target of opportunity because I was overlooked by an obvious shooter (I have see him/her firing on unarmed civilians) I would take a shot. Otherwise I won't.

I don't really want to get shot and more importantly I don't want to accidently shoot a first responder or CCW mistakenly because he was "the guy with the gun".

I also specifically don't wear "shoot me first" clothing/accessories. I have been excoriated before by BTDT guys that say that I am a moron. But even I, just a overweight, middle aged mechanical engineer have walked into a room and could often tell which guys were cops/armed by what they were wearing. So I know which guys I would have shot first if I decided to pull out a weapon and start shooting up a room.

That is also why I think that uniformed security is good for making people "feel protected" but plainclothes armed security is much better for making sure they are protected.

[Eurodriver]

I also specifically don't wear "shoot me first" clothing/accessories. I have been excoriated before by BTDT guys that say that I am a moron. But even I, just a overweight, middle aged mechanical engineer have walked into a room and could often tell which guys were cops/armed by what they were wearing. So I know which guys I would have shot first if I decided to pull out a weapon and start shooting up a room.

Polo. White undershirt. Khaki pants?

Was I close?

[Crow Hunter]

Polo. White undershirt. Khaki pants?

Was I close?

Is my computer camera on or something.

I work with a semi-famous IDPA shooter that now owns his own bullet company.

He dresses in shoot me first clothing ALL THE TIME. There is a big difference in what I am wearing and what he is wearing.

I look like a retail employee, and often get asked where things are if I am in a retail store.

He, on the other hand, looks like a tactical clothing ad in SWAT magazine.

It is bad enough that I can tell who he is by only seeing him from the waist down.

We were having a company function and I said "Well XXXX is here." My wife said, "How do you know?" I said "I can see his tactical pants over there under the display board." Then my wife said, "Oh wow. Is he carrying here, I thought you couldn't carry here?"

Now if someone has a grudge against retail workers, I am a target.

[C4IGrant]

Thanks Grant.

What would your response be if the answer to No. 2 is: There are identifiable threats and responding LEO within the same general area?

A real world example would be the Mumbai shooting or maybe this Navy Yard shooting if it turns out there were two+ threats.

Generally, we are looking to see if the bad guy has any friends.

While there could be an off duty cop or undercover cop in the same area, that is unlikely.

Average LE response time is 5-10 in most areas (unless rural). So you should have plenty of time to put your gun away and move away from the body.



C4