The 3-Gunner's rifle

[kelly neal]

The state of the three gun rifle has come about through a lot of development in the last 30 some years of practical 3 gun and rifle competition. The 3 gun rifle really has to be able to accomplish a lot of tasks: close range "CQB" shooting at Mach 10 speeds with fast splits and target transitions, accurate offhand shooting out to 200 yards, positional shooting out to 4, 500 and even 600 yards, interacting with barricades and props, and timed stages requiring utter reliability. It needs to shoot 1 MOA when smoking hot and work utterly reliably. Did I mention reliability?

Why has the 18 in barrel become popular? It's percieved to be slightly more handy than a 20 when dealing with props, retains a rifle length gas system, allows for longer handguards and loses little velocity. Is an 18 going to all of a sudden change your scores? Nope. I like an 18 but I shoot it no better than a 20. Much of the old guard still shoot 20 in barrels but the younger set are attracted to shorted barrels and matches like 3 gun nation (short range hose fests) apparently favor light quick and short rifles. But other matches (Blue Ridge, Rocky Mtn 3 Gun, Spartan Tactical) still have a lot of intermediate/long distance shooting where having more muzzle velocity doesn't hurt.

I prefer the feel of a fixed stock or a Magpul UBR myself. We don't wear armor so there is rarely a need shorten a stock although I have shot stages where I have shortened the stock to better deal with a prop. Plus many collapsible stocks grab facial hair and almost all good 3 gunners (Horner excepted) have facial hair.

As for the optic, look at the variety of shooting problems mentioned above. Variables rule the roost as they are best for dealing with a wide variety of shooting problems. You may hear tales on the internet of how a shooters kick ass with their Eotech/Aimpoint on 200, 300, and 400 yard targets but I rarely see it. I'm not saying it can't be done (I've shot plenty of Limited Division with irons or a 1X optic) but a little bit of magnification goes a long way on a 350 yard plate in the shade under a tree.

Why no BUIS? If you need to switch to your BUIS during a stage, you've aready lost. In 15 years of 3 gun shooting, I've never had the need for BUIS (knock on wood).

All of the above is not to say that you can't 3 gun with a 16 in a 14.5 in 10.5 or even a 24 inch barrel. It's just that's how we've come to this point. By far the most important accessory is a good zero and then a good trigger.

[Alaskapopo]

We never get any complaints about target size. We were using larger 2/3rd IPSC targets at 400+ but that's when shooters started saying the challenge wasn't there, and that was from even Limited(irons/red dots) shooters.

We have shooters driving from Nashville Tennessee and Wisconsin to shoot our events as we hold a 3Gun Nation style series here(12 events between 3 clubs in the state of Indiana with the top 16 making it to a shoot off at the end of the season for prizes)

You need to do what works for you. I like a challenge too but I had a lot of shooters who where struggling to hit pesky poppers at 180 yards. Then I found that most of three gun was doing the 4 moa rule. I am an open and tac optics shooter but I try to accommodate the iron and red dot shooters as well.

[jwfuhrman]

You need to do what works for you. I like a challenge too but I had a lot of shooters who where struggling to hit pesky poppers at 180 yards. Then I found that most of three gun was doing the 4 moa rule. I am an open and tac optics shooter but I try to accommodate the iron and red dot shooters as well.

I agree. I was trying to go with a 4MOA minimum but the shooters were asking for smaller. We use 1/2 Scale IPSC Flash Targets at one of our Clubs and 8in Flash Targets at another. The club with the 8in targets can only go to 300 max, the other club is a 1000 yard but we don't usually go past 400. We put a 30 second bonus target at 600 and used the 1/2 scale target.

I find it hilarious at the amount of shooters who spend more than 15 seconds on it.....

[tommyrott]

I second the notion of if you have a functional rifle go to a match and shoot it, then when you've hung around enough politely ask to shoot someone else's for a stage. I shoot a outlaw 3-gun locally where our max distance is 175-200 , for accuracy stages we use 1/3 IPSC cardboard up to 120 yards, bowling pins further out. if you want to screw with the gamers take the small cardboard targets and staple them at 45-50 degree angles so the scoreing zone is smaller. for my rifle I use a stainless 16" with 1/8 twist , micro-moa govanah gas block with a .073 plate, A-5 receiver extension, and a str stock with a 1/2 pound of weight in the tubes to bring the balance back slightly so it's not front heavy, very smooth in its own right, we do a lot of vehicle scenario's with shooting from inside so the length helps in maneuvering inside. got to shoot another competitor's JP ent. with 18" and suppressed with a surefire, definitely will spoil you

[ramairthree]

I still have not done my 18 inch barrel build.

My first multi gun comp was with a ten year old, carbine gas, 11.5 barrel with 5.5 FH BM that was ten years old and a cheap rail for the RDS.



It was one where a sling is just in the way and not needed, I did not have QR attachments, nothing where I would have needed the light, not enough round count to need the quick first reload redimag, and where it got stopped for significant MF and would not have needed to get to a rod quick.

I did a handful with a first model M&P VTAC. Even though I got it on clearance, and it has been a great rifle, it is not an ideal competition set up. It would work great for a more tactical type multigun meet locally I have never been off at the right time for.



I built with my son his 16 inch mid gas general purpose carbine he has used in two meets. His optic cost about the same as the rest of the build.



I built one carbine intended for just comp, but will probably go to a real 18 inch rifle gas barrel instead of a 16 inch mock dissipator.



I have only done about a dozen comps.
I did go from a pump to a SA shotgun.

I still run Berettas as the pistol.

If I had not spent a year and a half in casts, surgery, etc. and had my old right wrist back, I think I would enjoy a heavy metal category.

[jmk]

The funny thing is a 3 gun rifle is really the gun most people should be buying rather than an M4 like the military uses. Hopefully we can educate the consumer and get them out to a match at the same time.

just can't agree with this.

M4 is shorter, lighter, and more adjustable to fit different folks.

rifle length recoil impulse vs carbine just doesn't matter for a GP weapon.
1-4/6/8 optic is heavy, moves mass forward on the gun, and the distance shooting advantage is practically useless for "most people."
add in the on/off switch, battery life & brightness limitations as well as the cost and the variable optic actually becomes a bad idea.

better to spend the bucks on training, by far.

only thing wrong with an M4-ish config is the sucky USGI trigger and it should have a lightweight profile bbl. or at least keep it a slimmed down socom-like profile where the mass distribution actually does something useful vs gov't profile.

if you've got the bucks for multiple AR's, go for it (i did). but the best place to start is plain jane M4 colt/lmt/bcm/etc - get out and shoot.

[Alaskapopo]

just can't agree with this.

M4 is shorter, lighter, and more adjustable to fit different folks.

rifle length recoil impulse vs carbine just doesn't matter for a GP weapon.
1-4/6/8 optic is heavy, moves mass forward on the gun, and the distance shooting advantage is practically useless for "most people."
add in the on/off switch, battery life & brightness limitations as well as the cost and the variable optic actually becomes a bad idea.

better to spend the bucks on training, by far.

only thing wrong with an M4-ish config is the sucky USGI trigger and it should have a lightweight profile bbl. or at least keep it a slimmed down socom-like profile where the mass distribution actually does something useful vs gov't profile.

if you've got the bucks for multiple AR's, go for it (i did). but the best place to start is plain jane M4 colt/lmt/bcm/etc - get out and shoot.

You can put a collapsible stock on a three gun rifle and many run them. So no advantage in fitting different folks. The M4 configuration is obsolete sorry but its the truth. You have more issues with reliability in carbine gas systems parts need to be replaced more etc. A 1-6 optic is not that heavy (16 ounces for my Swaro) and the scope is just about where the center of the weight is on the rifle (magwell area) so no balance issues as you stated incorrectly.

Variable scopes are far far far better for general purpose guns than a red dot only or an ACOG only. If the battery is dead you still have a usable optic unlike an Aimpoint. (Some variables like the TR24 don't need batteries!) Last training I hosted for my officers had one Aimpoint equipped officer using his back up irons because his battery was dead. Why because he accidently left it on the brightest setting a few months back. Also M4 hand guards suck ass! Too short to put much on and not long enough to use a good forward grip that is currently taught by pretty much everyone from military to competition shooters. I got rid of my m4 carbines and I now run all 18 inch rifle gas system guns. Much better balance when all things are considered and 2 inches more barrel is not that much of a liability when maneuvering indoors in the real world. The best place to start is NOT a M4 style carbine. People will learn that on their own soon enough however.

[Jesse Tischauser]

You can put a collapsible stock on a three gun rifle and many run them. So no advantage in fitting different folks. The M4 configuration is obsolete sorry but its the truth. You have more issues with reliability in carbine gas systems parts need to be replaced more etc. A 1-6 optic is not that heavy (16 ounces for my Swaro) and the scope is just about where the center of the weight is on the rifle (magwell area) so no balance issues as you stated incorrectly.

Variable scopes are far far far better for general purpose guns than a red dot only or an ACOG only. If the battery is dead you still have a usable optic unlike an Aimpoint. (Some variables like the TR24 don't need batteries!) Last training I hosted for my officers had one Aimpoint equipped officer using his back up irons because his battery was dead. Why because he accidently left it on the brightest setting a few months back. Also M4 hand guards suck ass! Too short to put much on and not long enough to use a good forward grip that is currently taught by pretty much everyone from military to competition shooters. I got rid of my m4 carbines and I now run all 18 inch rifle gas system guns. Much better balance when all things are considered and 2 inches more barrel is not that much of a liability when maneuvering indoors in the real world. The best place to start is NOT a M4 style carbine. People will learn that on their own soon enough however.

What he said! I had 3 inexperienced shooters out at my range yesterday. They had their M4's. I had my Stag 3G. They hit a lot more targets with my gun than theirs and we weren't shooting anything past 50 yards. The biggest hurdle is probably cost. Rack grade M4's are cheap.

[kelly neal]

While I agree with the comment about training, I will have to agree with Jesse. I think most civilians would be as well served with a dedicated 3 gun rifle as an M4. It's a more versatile system.

The standard 3gun rifle is obviously good for 3 gun and practical rifle competition. I would also rather have a 3 gun rifle at a tactical training class than an M4 at a 3 gun match (though I'd take the comp off). I would MUCH rather take my JP prairie dog hunting than an M4.

I also agree with Alaskapopo, a variable greatly increases the versatility of the AR compared to a dot or fixed power like an ACOG, especially on a GP rifle.

But don't listen to me, look at all the latest greatest "tactical rifles" used by all our favorite instructors. The Haley-Lamb-McNamara-Pannone-Costa-Defoor Deathdealer Model 9000 AR is basically a race gun with a 16 in barrel, no comp, and standard weight BCGs. The race gun has definitely influenced where tactical carbine has headed.

[jmk]

You can put a collapsible stock on a three gun rifle and many run them. So no advantage in fitting different folks. The M4 configuration is obsolete sorry but its the truth. You have more issues with reliability in carbine gas systems parts need to be replaced more etc. A 1-6 optic is not that heavy (16 ounces for my Swaro) and the scope is just about where the center of the weight is on the rifle (magwell area) so no balance issues as you stated incorrectly.

Variable scopes are far far far better for general purpose guns than a red dot only or an ACOG only. If the battery is dead you still have a usable optic unlike an Aimpoint. (Some variables like the TR24 don't need batteries!) Last training I hosted for my officers had one Aimpoint equipped officer using his back up irons because his battery was dead. Why because he accidently left it on the brightest setting a few months back. Also M4 hand guards suck ass! Too short to put much on and not long enough to use a good forward grip that is currently taught by pretty much everyone from military to competition shooters. I got rid of my m4 carbines and I now run all 18 inch rifle gas system guns. Much better balance when all things are considered and 2 inches more barrel is not that much of a liability when maneuvering indoors in the real world. The best place to start is NOT a M4 style carbine. People will learn that on their own soon enough however.

these are great points, and true when viewed from the "my (race) gun" perspective.

however, i'm responding to Jesse Tischauser's "most people"...
i've got both configs, and if i had to choose "just one", it'd surely be more M4 than 3G.

from the "our (family) gun" perspective, M4 config is hardly obsolete nor unreliable.

teaching your wife or child to shoot? 3G is what suuuucks.... i can overcome the M4 "limitations" far more easily than they can a 3G's "optimizations".

one of your officers actually ran an aimpoint dead before...a class? and he didn't have a spare batt?
how long did you have him in front leaning rest? maybe a little less since he actually had irons...

tell you what...
...give taran butler an M4.
...give my wife his super-duper 3G.
who wins the shoot?
so tell me again what really matters?