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Thread: Hobby gun to work gun.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    I am not referring to the suit, but the fact that it wasn't allowed to be given out. I was under the impression that there are circumstances where the Army was allowed to do this.
    It depends on the contract agreement. If the contract stipulates the company holds the rights to the TDP, the .gov cannot just give it to anyone

    Seems kind of weird since Colt is now making M240's and they would need the TDP to build them.
    Colt would have received the basic TDP or an outline of what was expected to be in the TDP but not any part that was proprietary to FN. Colt, being experienced in delivering arms to the military, would have had little trouble developing a TDP that matched their business model and was acceptable to the DoD or whichever entity is in charge of the contract.

    An example would be the granting of contracts for the M14. The M14 was developed by the government run Springfield Armory and TRW, Winchester and Harrington & Richardson were contracted to produce them. Each company received the drawings and specifications but each had their own approach as to how they'd make the rifle. TRW installed all new machinery and used updated manufacturing processes and TRW M14s are reputed to be the best quality. Winchester started with existing machines & processes based on their experience making Garands. The TDP of each would have been changed to reflect that to ensure parts interchangeability and that quality standards were met
    Last edited by MistWolf; 09-30-13 at 11:05.
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  2. #32
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    So should we apply this TDP to our working Pistols as well? So everyone here uses nothing but TDP standard pistols for working guns? This whole BS standard for AR's is just that BS. I have 3 AR's and would use any of them as working guns and yes I trust my life to them working when needed- end of story. As I do for all my firearms. Everyone I own. So tell me which police department shoots thousands of rounds on a weeekly basis in the line of duty? Other then front line troops in combat do you really need that capability. Tell me which AR's made for civilian use wouldn't work for SD/HD situations most of us would encounter? For the life of me I haven't seen all these subpar AR's blowing up on a daily basis. Unless some fools feed them an overpressured round- an alot of those were the so called TDP standard guns!
    Last edited by GunnutAF; 09-30-13 at 11:25.

  3. #33
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    I'm not sure why you're trying to bait us, do you own three Stags that've never given you trouble after 1000 rounds each or something? PDs don't need to shoot at asymmetric warfare deployment work ups to see S&Ws, bushies, RRAs, etc shit the bed on them. Hell some just fail initial inspection and get sent back right away. Whether or not a TDP meeting/exceeding gun matters to you or not has no baring on whether or not one is essential to others.
    Last edited by Tzintzuntzan; 09-30-13 at 12:04. Reason: Never trust an iPhone
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post

    One of the few places a manufacturer can actually exceed mil-spec is by developing a manufacturing process for bolts that eliminates the need for HPT. HPT tests bolts and barrels at pressures beyond what they are designed to take. Each barrel and bolt has a limited, but unknown, over-pressure events it can withstand before it fails. Each time a bolt or barrel is HPT tested, that finite number is reduced by one. HPT testing can also start a failure within the part that is still within allowable limits, or even below detectable limits, yet set the part on the path of failure.

    Some will insist a bolt must be made of Carpenter steel and must be HPT tested, yet it's interesting to note that KAC does neither
    Centurion is also in the growing group of manufacturers that does not HPT test their bolts, specifically for the reasons you mentioned.
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  5. #35
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    Tzintzuntzan
    Well the TDP obviously doesn't matter to PD's either cause if it was the criteria for purchase then why have they and still do buy non TDP compliant AR's? As do other Federal agencies. If all AR's needed to be TDP compliant the market would force all manufactures to be TDP compliant would it not? Or is that the purpose of the majority of this board to force all manufactures to comply? As we see with all the so called compliant makers this means extra cost/ higher prices for AR's.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunnutAF View Post
    Tzintzuntzan
    Well the TDP obviously doesn't matter to PD's either cause if it was the criteria for purchase then why have they and still do buy non TDP compliant AR's? As do other Federal agencies. If all AR's needed to be TDP compliant the market would force all manufactures to be TDP compliant would it not? Or is that the purpose of the majority of this board to force all manufactures to comply? As we see with all the so called compliant makers this means extra cost/ higher prices for AR's.
    I thought to myself, what is this guy talking about? Then I realized you must be coming at this from the perspective that the cheapest commercial AR available must be the baseline price for an AR, and that everything else is "more expensive."

    Interesting point of view... but it generally isn't going to net you quality property.

  7. #37
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    Dead Man
    Quality is a relative term. I haven't had anything break on my AR's.
    Hadn't had to send any back for warranty work. So I guess they are quality made AR's then wouldn't you agree? Now I don't run thousands of rounds through them every year/week. I don't go into combat on a daily basis, or weekly or monthly. Don't run them in 3 guns, classes etc. So no I don't need to spend thousands on a TDP compliant AR like a DD, Norveske, KAC. And yes two of them cost less then a Colt 6920 .

  8. #38
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    Purchases made by PDs aren't usually the highest measure of quality. The fact that a manufacturer's delivery of rifles can routinely fail the inspection criteria for officers who might only put 100 rounds a month through a carbine is a big clue as to how well built those rifles are. Whether or not a rifle passes however depends on how knowledgeable the department and officers are about ARs in general. Those aren't quite the best odds since dollah, dollah signs are generally the first thing looked at.

    As far as the Feds go, you need to look at it in one of two ways. Which Federal agencies do the most hands on work? Which units do the most hands on work in a governement agency? Why do they almost all run Colts if they meet one of these two criteria? The only odd cases here are DEA, USSS and HRT if you trust Wikipedia that far. DEA ditched quite a few RRAs after shooting them but picked up on LWRC for both tactical and patrol units and hasn't had many regrets for the 5.56 guns. I hear the early REPRs were a nightmare though since they were built around a shitty C-Prod mag that wasn't even original AR10/SR25 pattern. Secret Service I don't know much about but supposedly they run KAC carbines. Allegedly HRT uses some HK416s but I don't know that for sure and would guess that they still have some SBR type DI rifles from Colt in use as well since they can still be made to run.

    Also, you lost me at needing to pay thousands of dollars for a DD, unless you mean the ISR

    Lastly, if none of this matters to you, because it does to "us", then why keep baiting us to try and get people agitated?
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  9. #39
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    I don't know this, but I would imagine these agencies are buying based on cost, not performance. I'm quite sure the Secret Service has a significantly higher weapon budget per agent than the DEA.

  10. #40
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    As far as DEA and FBI are concerned the LWRC and Colt guns meet their criteria, whatever that is. For USBP and other units it is a Colt carbine or what have you. Whether or not this means they have "the best" or a "budget fitting measure" is to be decided but considering that they haven't had a recent search for a new service rifle I would expect they are at least doing okay, if not admirably. Whether any of those rifles float your boat or not is not up to them.
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