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Thread: Hobby gun to work gun.

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinister View Post
    If it's not High Pressure Tested (per the spec in black-and-white) it doesn't meet United States M16/M4 military specification, period. Whether or not KAC (or anyone else) does either is irrelevant...
    My point isn't that bolts & barrels not HPT tested are mil-spec, but that is one of the few places a manufacturer can make an AR part that's better than mil-spec. I was using KAC as an example to show it could be done

    ...The MILSPEC is the minimum for acceptance by the US Government...
    Mil-spec isn't just a minimum, it's a parameter. For example, specs for a rifle could include a max length, max weight, must go a minimum number of rounds without failure, hold a certain number of rounds and so on. An alloy isn't spec'd just because it's the minimum that will do the job, it's chosen because it best meets the requirements of a variety of parameters.

    That's not to say the system is perfect, however. There are still things that slip through the crevasses- I mean cracks
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
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  2. #12
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    Mil-spec isn't just a minimum, it's a parameter. For example, specs for a rifle could include a max length, max weight, must go a minimum number of rounds without failure, hold a certain number of rounds and so on. An alloy isn't spec'd just because it's the minimum that will do the job, it's chosen because it best meets the requirements of a variety of parameters.
    The MILSPECs are the objective metrics for acceptance at delivery, not the required and desired (objective and threshold) performance and/or manufacturing specifications (the drawings, blueprints, and materials to be used). Apples and oranges, (or pie v. cake).

    The first are established by the users (weight/length, mean round between failures, rounds in the magazines, irons or optics, smooth or rails, etc); the second are specified by the government (in its drawings and specs, e.g., 4150 Chro-Moly-Vanadium barrel material, High Pressure tested -- and here are the specs we'll use to accept and test your submission) or by the original contract awardee's (e.g., Colt's, FN's, or Beretta's TDP, to include materials) First Article submission.

    There are HUNDREDS of AR rifles out there that look generally similar and all go bang when you put in ammo. There are only so many that perform the same because they're built of the same components.

    There are even fewer that are tested and certified as such.

    Obviously it can be done (look at how many Warsaw Pact and Asian outfits put out AKs).

    MILSPEC parts will fit and function whether the M4/M16 was built in Connecticut, South Carolina, Canada, Singapore, the Philippines, or Korea (all on the same drawings and TDP).

    You can build a damn fine and capable Frankengun you KNOW will work better than one of Uncle's off-the-rack guns if you're selective of its components. When people see some of my carbines and rifles they throw up in their mouth a little because of the name, logo, and address stamped on the lower -- but they shoot better than anything delivered to Uncle's dock. They never went through a government inspector's hands.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by agr1279 View Post
    I have seen many experts from Pat Rodgers to Larry Vickers talk about the quality of the leaders, Colt and KAC. **************** How did Larue, Daniel Defense and BCM go from nowhere to being recognized as one of the good ones?
    You left out Noveske.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinister View Post
    A Carbine made by anyone can meet or exceed that standard without ever cracking open the Colt/USG Technical Data Plans, drawings, and prints -- but most of the time if they do it's strictly by accident.
    Quote Originally Posted by sinister View Post
    The MILSPEC is the minimum for acceptance by the US Government. It doesn't necessarily mean a rifle or carbine you build or buy off the rack/shelf won't meet the rigors and punishment of duty use, but it's an indicator of what you can expect for what you pay for.
    Two material misstatements in one thread...

    MILSPEC isn't a minimum and it can't be exceeded. It's a target. You either hit or you don't. Period, Full Stop.
    Last edited by MarkG; 09-28-13 at 11:32.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinister View Post
    A Carbine made by anyone can meet or exceed that standard without ever cracking open the Colt/USG Technical Data Plans, drawings, and prints -- but most of the time if they do it's strictly by accident.
    Quote Originally Posted by sinister View Post
    The MILSPEC is the minimum for acceptance by the US Government. It doesn't necessarily mean a rifle or carbine you build or buy off the rack/shelf won't meet the rigors and punishment of duty use, but it's an indicator of what you can expect for what you pay for.
    Two material misstatements in one thread...

    MILSPEC isn't a minimum and it can't be exceeded. It's a target. You either hit it or you don't. Period, Full Stop.
    Last edited by MarkG; 09-28-13 at 11:35.

  6. #16
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    Conceded. They ARE a set of pass/fail criteria. They can be broad (batch-testing) or they can be very narrow.

    There are no bennies for surpassing the standard -- except maybe down the road if the government has granted a value-added performance bonus.

    They CAN be punitive -- should the contractor fail to meet them the Government Contracting Officer can demand the awardee "Show Cause" as to why they shouldn't be penalized or have their award cancelled or withdrawn.

  7. #17
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    Some of this stuff has to be internet-generated. Yesterday's solid self-defense guns are today's "hobby guns." Opinion changes like Paris haute-couture. For a while Noveske was the only one to have, then it was BCM if you wanted to stay alive , then Daniel Defense was the only one in a pinch, now it's KAC . . . . with Colt the perennial winner. All else are suitable only as movie props, or to give to criminals, safe in the knowledge that with the first round fired, they'll instantly deconstruct into a little pile of metal powder.

  8. #18
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    At what point does an AR manufacture/parts assembler go from hobby guns to a work gun?
    If you talked to every person on this website (or any other) you'll never find one universally accepted standard. People can't even agree on what Milspec should mean in relation to the civilian market. So as you read peoples responses try to remember that these are personal standards that people set and not some adherence to a written or unwritten rule about what should be what.

    IMO shooting a bullet is work for a gun. The gun doesn't know if it is shooting a bullet for someones hobby, self defense, competition, hunting, etc. The user decides what type of gun it is. If two identical BCM guns go to a gun shop and one is bought for a range toy and the other is bought for a duty weapon, one gun turns into one and the other likewise.

    There seems to be so many experts here that someone should be able to give a valid point to what they mean and how a company changes the reputation
    There are lots of ways for a company to change its reputation. They can improve the quality of their guns, they can give guns to gun rags and have them reviewed, they can become more active in social media, they can give free guns to respected people then publish pictures of those people using the guns, they can sponsor websites like this one, they can sponsor shooting events, they can have excellent customer service departments, they can have excellent shipping departments, etc.

    If you are looking to buy a gun for actual duty then consider all sorts of things like department policy, how often and long you will have to carry it, what distances you will shoot, what ammo you will shoot in it, compatibility with other equipment you already use and of course your budget/reimbursement/tax write off. If you want to buy a hobby gun that other people consider a duty gun get a 16" carbine from any brand you mentioned in your first paragraph.

  9. #19
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    The milspec TDP is intended to be a floor, below which the DoD sees no reason to pay for weapons which will see fielding. In terms of quantities of civilian AR's made, that floor is deemed astronomically high by companies with less than stellar QC/QA, therefore their marketing department steps in with stuff like 'ours is better because it's different', instead of showing large sample size high round count testing set to low statistical P values of MRBF above a certain threshold and improved over the TDP specification.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uni-Vibe View Post
    Some of this stuff has to be internet-generated. Yesterday's solid self-defense guns are today's "hobby guns." Opinion changes like Paris haute-couture. For a while Noveske was the only one to have, then it was BCM if you wanted to stay alive , then Daniel Defense was the only one in a pinch, now it's KAC . . . . with Colt the perennial winner. All else are suitable only as movie props, or to give to criminals, safe in the knowledge that with the first round fired, they'll instantly deconstruct into a little pile of metal powder.
    You're entirely misunderstanding this - Noveske are STILL the barrels and barreled uppers to have if you want the best of both worlds in precision rifles with high durability, not to mention the Gen2 lowers that are arguably the nicest out there; BCM still makes a lot of fantastic components (GF CH, Grips), as well as making very customizable uppers off solid CHF and standard barrels; DanielDefense still makes amazing rails, and have unbeatable deals on complete rifles with CHF barrels and solid rail systems, not to mention the de facto standard for rail affixed iron sights; KAC still have the SR-15, which is arguably the best complete base rifle in existence, with the Mod1 being another incremental improvement over the E3/IWS model; and Colt has always been 'the' standard by which the others are judged, and now that their DoD contract work isn't taking the entire production capacity, the Sprawl-Mart sourced 6920's are the best value in civilian AR's out there.

    It's not that hobby guns are inadequate for firing off half a dozen mags a day on a trip to the range to have a good time - they're perfect for that. If ran hard, then you'll start to see the myriad of reasons why people here pay more for rifles.
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  10. #20
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    There's no doubt that a number of AR manufacturers use lower quality materials and do not have the quality control of others. I'm sure that there are others that are so out of spec that they barely fit anything not made by the same company. However, as it's been pointed out, what is considered duty grade and what is considered hobby grade in a rifle, beyond what can be easily seen, seems to be open for debate. There are some who hold to milspec like the Bible: Let anyone who adds to or takes away from what is written be condemned. And there's still another camp that sees milspec as the place to start, but looks for ways to improve upon the current designs.

    I frankly don't see anything wrong with the latter position. As long as the improvements don't in any way compromise the rifle's functioning and durability, and the gun is still compatible with just about every standard AR part on the market, I say why not?
    Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who do not.-Ben Franklin

    there’s some good in this world, Mr. Frodo. And it’s worth fighting for.-Samwise Gamgee

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