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Thread: Hobby gun to work gun.

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicious_cb View Post
    The difference is your life probably doesn't depend on the quality of your wrench...
    True, but lives depend on the quality of the maintenance it performs.

    I've been a long time user of Craftsman tools but a few years ago, I started noticing a significant slip in their quality and have started changing over to Snap-On for certain items, like sockets.

    I've got to say, no one has a better ratcheting screwdriver than the latest design from Snap-On
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    True, but lives depend on the quality of the maintenance it performs.

    I've been a long time user of Craftsman tools but a few years ago, I started noticing a significant slip in their quality and have started changing over to Snap-On for certain items, like sockets.

    I've got to say, no one has a better ratcheting screwdriver than the latest design from Snap-On
    No difference from the base argument.

    Craftsman, Snap-On, Kobalt, Acme, Binford, Harbor Freight -- they all look the same and should do the same function. They're not made the same, they're not from the same materials, nor are they backed up the same, either.

    "Hobby tools vice work tools."

    You can line up factory-made ARs and carbines and externally they're close (if not identical). Start shooting them and you start discovering issues, some small, some catastrophic.

  3. #53
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    No argument there
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

    http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
    I am American

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunnutAF View Post
    So should we apply this TDP to our working Pistols as well? So everyone here uses nothing but TDP standard pistols for working guns?
    I don't think the TDP is BS. But, it is a double standard. What is the standard for a pistol to be used for self defense (or carried on duty)? I've heard things like 200 rounds of practice and ammo and 100 rounds of whatever your are going to carry. As far as I know, nobody does MPI of their pistol barrel's (or any other part). Why is the standard there lower? Because the higher standard doesn't exist?

    For a policeman, it seems like the pistol is more likely to be used in a fight than a long gun. Is a S&W M&P 9 more reliable than a S&W M&P 15T? I don't think so. Why will some of you carry one but not the other?

    That said, if I was going to carry an AR into battle I would carry one of the "top tier". That decision is made easy by the fact that there isn't that much of a money difference between many of them and many of the "lower tier's".

    For home defense, I'll grab my M&P 15 sport before either my glock 19 or my M&P 9 if given the choice.
    Last edited by timbo813; 10-02-13 at 18:13.

  5. #55
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    S&W ARs are proof that you can blow off the TDP and nobody will care as long as the gun itself works.

  6. #56
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    The reason the TDP is important is because it is, in many ways, the compendium of technical "lessons learned" from years upon years of operational experience in the most rugged environments imaginable. When a certain number of failures occurred, they looked into it, fixed it, and updated the TDP. As a result, weapons built IAW the TDP are much less likely to experience various failures than weapons not built IAW the TDP.

    If you spend your time using your weapon to shoot paper plates and dirt clods in pretty controlled conditions, then the TDP may not matter much to you. But if you are a person whose life depends on your weapon and you operate in a ton of environments over which you have no control over (read: law enforcement, military, and security personnel), whether or not your weapon was built IAW the TDP could mean the difference between life and death.

    Am I saying that there are aspects of the TDP that have yet to be changed in light of recent developments? Certainly.

    But that is not an excuse for a company to ignore the TDP to save a buck while pretending that their weapon is "just as good as" a weapon built by a company who follows the TDP.
    Last edited by justin_247; 10-03-13 at 20:39. Reason: Some minor grammatical errors that I missed. I'm sure I missed more, but I hit the biggies.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWcityguy2 View Post
    S&W ARs are proof that you can blow off the TDP and nobody will care as long as the gun itself works.
    S&W doesn't "blow off" the TDP. In fact, they follow it more closely than most of their competitors (except for Colt, FN, DD, BCM, Centurion, LMT, Spike's, and Noveske). That said, they are the lowest quality rifle I would be willing to buy.

    The parts that they ignore (primarily barrel composition and associated quality control measures, and barrel twist rate) they make up for sourcing the parts from known good suppliers. And my understanding is that they are implementing better quality control measures based upon the TDP. I'm unsure if they fully got it up and running or not, and whether or not they are batch testing or individually testing components.
    Last edited by justin_247; 10-03-13 at 20:53.

  8. #58
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    And they are way overgassed. We did some testing in GA with a midlength being used by a police officer.

    I ran with various 5.56 ammo using an H3 buffer and blue Springco. It also ran with the Vltor A5H4 and green Springco spring.

    My MKI MOD0 eye ball indicated that is was larger than the standard .076.

    Quote Originally Posted by NWcityguy2 View Post
    S&W ARs are proof that you can blow off the TDP and nobody will care as long as the gun itself works.



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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    And they are way overgassed. We did some testing in GA with a midlength being used by a police officer.

    I ran with various 5.56 ammo using an H3 buffer and blue Springco. It also ran with the Vltor A5H4 and green Springco spring.

    My MKI MOD0 eye ball indicated that is was larger than the standard .076.
    If you're selectively going to follow the TDP, and target a rifle for the $700 out the door audience, they've made exactly the right call in my book - run a 1:8 twist and a huge gas port so it handles the widest variety of mediocre ammunition that your target audience is likely to feed it.

    Anybody willing to feed a rifle a steady and exclusive diet of 5.56 pressure quality brass ammunition isn't going to hesitate to just buy the 6920 or equivalent rifle - S&W did a good job of evaluating their market.
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