Business ethics: Scenarios and your responses.

[SteyrAUG]

S2- The only thing unethical about this was the business requiring a BA, forcing somebody to lie in order to get the job they wanted and are quite obviously competent and capable of doing and doing well. No sense destroying somebody's life, livelihood, and career over what is ultimately a trivial piece of paper.

Seriously? It's the businesses fault?

We'll shit let's not make doctors go to school to get that fancy paper. Let them do some on the job learning the way interns do it.

The difference is somebody took the time, trouble and expense to do things right way and earn a salary based upon them having taken the time, trouble and expense as a means of compensation.

But if a person doesn't invest the time, trouble and expense to get the required degree and is compensated with a salary that assumes they did, well there is your fraud, there is your bad guy. There is the lack of ethics.

[Crow Hunter]

In these kinds of questions we are not supposed to create scenarios ( even though we all have to present a point ).



OK... thee is no time frame mentioned. Could have been yesterday, could have been 5 years ago. You now have information that may or may not be true. If true it violates your employers code which he has the right to define. That's pretty much the end of that story. It is what it is. You have been -told without proof- that you know a secret that violates company policy.



This is all pretty much irrelevant.



There is nothing in this statement that indicates you should have known about the termination due to false resume. Maybe they made the rule yesterday. Maybe they made it 10 years ago. Maybe they only become concerned with employees knowing this once they are considered for a management position and now you are being made aware. We have no way of knowing..... All we do know is that as of this instant in time you do indeed know...... regarding this dilemma... the "what we all knew in the past" has not been addressed. The "what we all know right this minute" is clear



Now when you answer that question if you consider the past you will be manufacturing information to support your decision. that is not the question. The question is take the information you are given, while not exhaustive or even totally clear, deals only with the present.

Remember you have the option to say. She confided in me that she has no BA.

Boss: wow, we checked and you are right. thank you.. you get the job.

At this point you have the job and have satisfied the scenario.

You: Well, I'm afraid I have to decline, because the fact is I have known for years and didn't feel it was my place to speak up.

Boss: Oh, I see ... which means that promotion may be short lived. So at the end of the day you got exactly what you wanted. A position based solely on your abilities and actions.

So the answer is Yes... and the answer about turning yourself in if you have supported her lie is also Yes.

Ethics are not about what you get for your good deeds. They are usually about you not getting something today such that something can't be taken from you tomorrow.

If I were the boss and someone came to me and said. "Person X confided in me that they didn't have a degree so I just wanted you to know." My first thought would be, I definitely don't want a person like that on my team. Particularly if it was to advance their personal career. Now if they just found out, overheard or otherwise discovered said information without being directly told by Person X and asked to keep it a secret, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

I have worked in management for years as well as in company "Skunk works" projects all that require me to keep secret information confided to me. I would not want my employees blabbing company trade secrets to competitors or internally "classified" information that you will pick up being a member of management (info that rank and file employees do not need to know). To me, the question is : "Is it ethical to divulge something spoken to you in confidence as a means to advance your career?" not "Is it ethical to keep secrets from your employer".

I do think it is ethical to keep secrets from my employer. I do and will continue to do so. I won't lie about it if asked, but if my current employer were to ask me questions about the inner workings of my previous employer that I was asked to keep secret, I won't divulge them. (That is unlikely to happen as they are in 2 completely different industries, but that is the principle that I work on) Just like I won't tell the salaries of my previous employees or personal information that I knew about them that they told me in confidence.

[_Stormin_]

To me, the question is : "Is it ethical to divulge something spoken to you in confidence as a means to advance your career?" not "Is it ethical to keep secrets from your employer".

The question is, "Is it ethical to knowingly conceal that someone lied about a required qualification in order to get a job?"

You're not being asked, "Would you divulge trade, or even intracompany information in order to advance within your own company?"

Person X - Has the skills and degree.
Person Y - Has the skills and misled company about degree.

I simply can't wrap my head around how anyone could see it as anything but that. I guess, as I said in my original post on this thread, that I was just raised differently than some.

[Crow Hunter]

The question is, "Is it ethical to knowingly conceal that someone lied about a required qualification in order to get a job?"

You're not being asked, "Would you divulge trade, or even intracompany information in order to advance within your own company?"

Person X - Has the skills and degree.
Person Y - Has the skills and misled company about degree.

I simply can't wrap my head around how anyone could see it as anything but that. I guess, as I said in my original post on this thread, that I was just raised differently than some.

You see no ethical issue with divulging information that was given to you in confidence even if not to advance your own career?

I was raised that if you agreed to keep a secret, you stood by your word.

I wouldn't lie, (and I let people know up front, that I won't lie for them) if someone asked me, but it isn't something I would volunteer if someone had confided in me.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
confide [kənˈfaɪd]
vb
1. (usually foll by in; when tr, may take a clause as object) to disclose (secret or personal matters) in confidence (to); reveal in private (to)
2. (intr; foll by in) to have complete trust
3. (tr) to entrust into another's keeping
[from Latin confīdere, from fīdere to trust; related to Latin foedus treaty]
confider n

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
con•fide (kənˈfaɪd)

v. -fid•ed, -fid•ing. v.i.
1. to discuss private matters or problems (usu. fol. by in).
2. to have full trust; have faith.
v.t.
3. to tell in assurance of secrecy.
4. to entrust to the charge or knowledge of another.

The use of the word confide, as defined above, implies that you agreed to keep a secret and now you are choosing to release information for the sole purpose of advancing your career (per the scenario). Otherwise it would have been said that you overheard, were made aware of, found out, etc.

But maybe we were raised differently.

[HKGuns]

1. Can you ask some of your employees to write bad reviews of your competitor?

2. Would it be ethical to offer free meals or cash to some of your customers to write bad reviews of your competitor—or write some good reviews about yours?

These are relatively simple and I don't understand how anyone could be confused by the ethical answer.

1. No
2. No

Is it ethical to tell upper management that she lied on her resume, when you know it will guarantee you the promotion?

In most companies you have a duty to report violations of company policy. You don't tell upper management, you inform HR what you were told by this employee so they can investigate.

Is there any ethical problem for you in writing and posting the job description, accepting applications and so on, when you know none of them will get the job?

I've been in this exact position and have posted the job, interviewed the candidates and selected the best person for the job, which wasn't the resume' given me by someone higher up in the food chain.

In most companies, HR requires you to post the position and your duty as the hiring manager is to ensure a non biased interview is conducted. To do otherwise could jeopardize YOUR job.

[Alaskapopo]

You see no ethical issue with divulging information that was given to you in confidence even if not to advance your own career?

I was raised that if you agreed to keep a secret, you stood by your word.

I wouldn't lie, (and I let people know up front, that I won't lie for them) if someone asked me, but it isn't something I would volunteer if someone had confided in me.



The use of the word confide, as defined above, implies that you agreed to keep a secret and now you are choosing to release information for the sole purpose of advancing your career (per the scenario). Otherwise it would have been said that you overheard, were made aware of, found out, etc.

But maybe we were raised differently.

On your keeping a secret issue. What if someone you know confessed to you that they had murdered someone or raped a child. I doubt you would feel the same about keeping it secret. With me I don't want friends who put me in a bad situation. Don't ask me to lie for you or take the heat for you. One of the things I warn the cops I train is that its not just what you do that will get you fired its watching someone else do it and not saying anything.
I was on a call once with a Trooper who threatened his suspect who had wanted a blood draw (DUI arrest) and then later changed his mind (his right in this case). The trooper told him that we would hold him down while the nurses got the blood if he had to. I had him step aside and told him I would do no such thing and that I could not let him either and I informed him that I was recording as per our department policy. He back tracked on what he said. I gave the audio recording to my chief. Had I watched or let the trooper violate that mans rights my job and my freedom would have been on the line as well.
Pat

[Crow Hunter]

On your keeping a secret issue. What if someone you know confessed to you that they had murdered someone or raped a child. I doubt you would feel the same about keeping it secret. With me I don't want friends who put me in a bad situation. Don't ask me to lie for you or take the heat for you. One of the things I warn the cops I train is that its not just what you do that will get you fired its watching someone else do it and not saying anything.
I was on a call once with a Trooper who threatened his suspect who had wanted a blood draw (DUI arrest) and then later changed his mind (his right in this case). The trooper told him that we would hold him down while the nurses got the blood if he had to. I had him step aside and told him I would do no such thing and that I could not let him either and I informed him that I was recording as per our department policy. He back tracked on what he said. I gave the audio recording to my chief. Had I watched or let the trooper violate that mans rights my job and my freedom would have been on the line as well.
Pat

If I were stupid enough to allow someone to get me to promise to keep a secret like that, then yes, my sense of honor would require me to keep that secret no matter how heinous. That doesn't mean that I would not work towards getting that person incarcerated, but it would mean that I would not immediately run to the police and tell it.

I tell someone, when they come to me and say, "Can you keep a secret?". I say, "I can, but be aware that I won't lie for you." I don't know many non-company related secrets.

Like I said earlier. If I found out about something, without being confided in by someone, I wouldn't have any issue reporting them at all. Similar to what you had observed. If that trooper had come to you and asked you to keep a secret and you agreed and he told you about said incident and you then reported it, that would be bad ethics in my opinion.

If the scenario had not said "confided" and advancing your own career, I would have said that I would report it. I don't have an issue with reporting violations of company policy.

There was an "engineer" that worked in my department. He spent a large portion of his day staring at his computer screen and texting on his phone. Company policy is no cell phone use allowed on company property other than in lunch rooms/break areas. His quality of work was crap, people from other departments were calling me about his design changes because his documentation was so poor. I tried, multiple times to help him, get him up to speed and show him what to do. Nothing worked. So I went to my boss and I told him what was going on (because this "engineer" was hiding what he was doing from our boss but not our fellow engineers) and that his quality of work was reflecting badly on our department. Eventually this person was fired and I don't feel bad "tattling" on him because I didn't promise to keep something a secret and it was my duty to my department and employer to do a good job.

I am only as good as my word and I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I wasn't. But I can see how some people are missing the word and context of confided and assuming that this is just information that was discovered and in that case, I wouldn't have an issue with someone doing it.

[_Stormin_]

You see no ethical issue with divulging information that was given to you in confidence even if not to advance your own career?

If the information is a violation of a law or policy that I have committed to following, no issue. In my current company we have a rule mandating that you report violations or you're also in violation. Every company that I have worked for has had this same policy.

Truth be told, I would have notified the person choosing to confide in me IMMEDIATELY that I take issue with their lies. The people I work with are well informed of who I am, and I can't see being in the position in the first place. My colleagues know my belief in ethical behavior and the lack of leeway that that those beliefs have. In my industry there isn't room for grey area.

I was raised that if you agreed to keep a secret, you stood by your word.

And I was raised not to accommodate liars and cheats...

But maybe we were raised differently.

Yes, I believe that's the conclusion that this leads us to. No issue there. Sure that there is plenty we see eye to eye on.

[MountainRaven]

We have a difference of opinion. In my field lying will end your career and I value honesty in my friends as well. Someone is only as good as their word. The officers I have been directly involved in their termination was due to lying. Your conscience should be your guide. If it feels wrong it probably is. If you have to come up with elaborate justifications as to why what your doing is not really wrong or that bad its probably very wrong. That kind of stuff eats me up personally so I have found its better just to tell the truth and take your lumps. I understand it is hard to turn someone in. But if they find out later that you knew your job may be in jeopardy and at the very least your boss will not trust you.

You've never lied to a suspect in an attempt to elicit a confession and/or get them to roll on a partner or boss? And when your brother officers up there have, it has resulted in them losing their jobs?

Because that happens frequently, here. Even during routine traffic stops.

Seriously? It's the businesses fault?

We'll shit let's not make doctors go to school to get that fancy paper. Let them do some on the job learning the way interns do it.

You plainly have not read through this thread and my follow-on posts, where I stated that the BA is a useful stepping stone for moving onto a doctorate.

[Alaskapopo]

You've never lied to a suspect in an attempt to elicit a confession and/or get them to roll on a partner or boss? And when your brother officers up there have, it has resulted in them losing their jobs?

Because that happens frequently, here. Even during routine traffic stops.



You plainly have not read through this thread and my follow-on posts, where I stated that the BA is a useful stepping stone for moving onto a doctorate.

Using deception with a suspect is fine with in certain bounds established by the courts. Lying in your daily life and to your friends, co-workers, family and boss is not. You should understand the difference. In one case your dealing with a suspect who is lying to you and you are trying to find the truth. In the other case when your lying your doing so to cover your own rear or for personal gain.
Pat