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Thread: Why do mfgs still make carbine length gas systems?

  1. #121
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    My experience between carbine and mid length is that the carbine gas guns tend to work the action a bit harder than the middies. The downsides to the more robust cycling of carbine gas is harsher recoil, and theoretically reduced parts life. The upsides is they are less ammo sensitive and will cycle the underpowered ammo. I have two BCM rifles, one a 16 inch middy and the other is 14.5 carbine. The middy is noticeably smoother shooting with less recoil and muzzle rise, unfortunately my middy does not like .223 spec ammo and regularly short strokes with most .223 ammo. My carbine on the other hand will cycle anything my middy won't including PMC bronze which chokes hard in my middy, the downside is it kicks noticeably harder (not bad though, we are talking about 5.56 here). My home defense/shtf gun is the carbine gas simply because I've never been able to make it choke. If I could only have one it would be the carbine gas.

  2. #122
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    I have had both, and I didn't see much a difference on recoil between both. If you want smooth action and less recoil, go with the original rifle length. A 20" barrel can shoot everything, and no issues.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by thatpanda View Post
    I have two BCM rifles, one a 16 inch middy and the other is 14.5 carbine. The middy is noticeably smoother shooting with less recoil and muzzle rise, unfortunately my middy does not like .223 spec ammo and regularly short strokes with most .223 ammo. My carbine on the other hand will cycle anything my middy won't including PMC bronze which chokes hard in my middy...
    Thats some interesting stuff right there. I'm shooting a 16" BCM mid length and I just bought a pile of PMC Bronze. I have yet to get any short stroking shooting .223 including a fair amount of Tula so I'll be curious to see how it performs shooting the PMC.

    On the other hand, my friend shots a carbine length Bushmaster and he has yet to find a .223 that will cycle properly in his rig. I know...apples to oranges. Just sayin...

  4. #124
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    I'd suggest going to a C buffer or replacing the action spring, if your mid-length 16" gun is short stroking. It's definitely not an under-gassed design- it should cycle any factory ammunition.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by thatpanda View Post
    My experience between carbine and mid length is that the carbine gas guns tend to work the action a bit harder than the middies. The downsides to the more robust cycling of carbine gas is harsher recoil, and theoretically reduced parts life. The upsides is they are less ammo sensitive and will cycle the underpowered ammo.
    Actually, the carbine length gas system is less forgiving and that's why they are more likely to be over-gassed than a middy or rifle length system. The rifle length system will work with a wider variety of ammo because it taps the gas at a more ideal pressure and volume point which makes it much easier to tune

    I have two BCM rifles, one a 16 inch middy and the other is 14.5 carbine. The middy is noticeably smoother shooting with less recoil and muzzle rise, unfortunately my middy does not like .223 spec ammo and regularly short strokes with most .223 ammo. My carbine on the other hand will cycle anything my middy won't including PMC bronze which chokes hard in my middy, the downside is it kicks noticeably harder (not bad though, we are talking about 5.56 here). My home defense/shtf gun is the carbine gas simply because I've never been able to make it choke. If I could only have one it would be the carbine gas.
    The only reason your carbine will kick harder than your middy will be if it's lighter. Two rifles of the same weight shooting the same ammo at the same velocity will generate the same amount of recoil regardless of action type. One may have softer or harsher recoil than the other, but the amount of recoil will be the same
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

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  6. #126
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    I'm skeptical of the above. What may be perceived as 'recoil' may have more to do with the mass of the bolt carrier/buffer coming to a halt at the end of its stroke than the actual recoil generated by the launching of the bullet.
    PP-series Walthers in .380 are notorious for a kind of stinging sensation when they are fired; this is largely caused by the slide reaching the end of its travel and striking the frame, rather than the recoil of firing the cartridge itself.
    Moon

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfmoonclip View Post
    I'm skeptical of the above. What may be perceived as 'recoil' may have more to do with the mass of the bolt carrier/buffer coming to a halt at the end of its stroke than the actual recoil generated by the launching of the bullet.
    PP-series Walthers in .380 are notorious for a kind of stinging sensation when they are fired; this is largely caused by the slide reaching the end of its travel and striking the frame, rather than the recoil of firing the cartridge itself.
    Moon
    What creates more impact force; the cartridge detonating and expelling the bullet, or the buffering system subsequently bottoming out?

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Man View Post
    What creates more impact force; the cartridge detonating and expelling the bullet, or the buffering system subsequently bottoming out?
    If I were a betting man, I'd guess what is perceived as recoil is a combination of both.
    It may be at the heart of what is being debated in this thread; some combinations of barrel length and dwell time for the gas system may run more smoothly than others, and there are no few variables that will affect this:
    -bullet weight and MV
    -powder burn rate
    -mass of buffer and/or bolt
    -gas port diameter

    This is without even considering the other, normal things that affect recoil like how tightly the bullet is fitted to the bore, or the snugness of the chamber.
    Moon

  9. #129
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    I have kind of wondered this at times. So the pressure is higher in a carbine. In theory a mid length has less felt recoil, and is not as rough on the parts. But how much more? Will you be replacing parts at 5k intervals? Or at 5500 intervals? More? Less? So far in my limited research. I have found absolutely nothing saying that a carbine has any true negatives as opposed to a mid length. At least outside of sight radius, and hand guard length. Then the perceived recoil. But seems just as many people say they feel no difference as opposed to people they claim they do feel one. The increased pressure is one I suppose, but I cant find anything that shows it really has any real decisive negative effects on the parts at all. Certainly not enough to worry about it.

    To date I have only owned 5 carbines. 1 oly arms before I knew any better, and 4 colts. Without ever have even so much as shot a mid length, it seems a better debate would be what muzzle device to put on.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Man View Post
    What creates more impact force; the cartridge detonating and expelling the bullet, or the buffering system subsequently bottoming out?
    The cartridge generates all the force. The BCG generates no force, it merely stores and releases the energy generated by the cartridge.

    Perceived recoil is different from free recoil. Using the same ammo fired at the same velocity in two rifles with the same mass will generate the same free recoil, whether that rifle is a self loader or manually operated. Yes, if the reciprocating mass stops suddenly, the shooter will feel it's sharper impact. If the reciprocating mass is brought to a stop more slowly, it will have a softer impact. Many variables change how recoil feels, such as action type, stock dimensions, butt pad material and muzzle brake, but none will increase or decrease free recoil.

    What increases or decreases free recoil is rifle mass, bullet mass, powder mass and ejecta velocity
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

    http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
    I am American

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