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Thread: Why do mfgs still make carbine length gas systems?

  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    The only reason your carbine will kick harder than your middy will be if it's lighter. Two rifles of the same weight shooting the same ammo at the same velocity will generate the same amount of recoil regardless of action type. One may have softer or harsher recoil than the other, but the amount of recoil will be the same
    Not exactly... that is the conventional theory and true for two rifles that do nothing but fire a projectile - if all other things are identical, the lighter of the two rifles will have a higher recoil.

    But keep in mind that a lot of the potential energy from firing the cartridge is lost as heat, light and noise; if we capture some of that energy (in the form of high pressure gas at the gas port) and turn the potential energy into work (as in accelerating the BCG), the additional kinetic energy from buffering, slowing, stopping and returning the accelerated BCG will add to the recoil... the faster the bolt carrier accelerates, the more kinetic energy.

    In the famous Dual M4 High Fidelity Gymnasticator, the top rifle is fired but the gas is directed to cycle the BCG in the bottom rifle - the bottom rifle is still going to have "recoil"... even though it was not fired, that recoil generated by the bottom rifle would be in addition to the "equal and opposite" reaction the top rifle experiences from firing the projectile.



    In theory, the combination of recoil from the top and bottom rifles would be equal to the total recoil if the rifle was fired in it standard configuration, but you have to admit that part of that "total" recoil impulse is generated by the BCG, independent of the actual opposite reaction of accelerating the projectile... therefore the more kinetic energy that BCG makes, the greater the recoil will be.
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  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    The cartridge generates all the force. The BCG generates no force, it merely stores and releases the energy generated by the cartridge.
    I'm afraid you're incorrect. The carrier/buffer system create their own impact force. They're set in motion by residual energy from another source, but when the carrier pushes the buffer into that spring, and especially if/when the whole shabang bottoms out at the end of the receiver extension, impact force is, quite positively, generated.

    Force, impact force, and energy are three distinct things.

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Man View Post
    I'm afraid you're incorrect. The carrier/buffer system create their own impact force. They're set in motion by residual energy from another source, but when the carrier pushes the buffer into that spring, and especially if/when the whole shabang bottoms out at the end of the receiver extension, impact force is, quite positively, generated.

    Force, impact force, and energy are three distinct things.
    While the moving parts cause impact force during all this transfer of energy, they do not generate impact force. They do not generate energy, they affected by, store and transfer energy
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

    http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
    I am American

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    While the moving parts cause impact force during all this transfer of energy, they do not generate impact force. They do not generate energy, they affected by, store and transfer energy
    Of course it does... Ek = 1/2 mv2
    Please let me know if I have offended you...
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  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    While the moving parts cause impact force during all this transfer of energy, they do not generate impact force. They do not generate energy, they affected by, store and transfer energy
    By that, all energy is a byproduct of the big-bang, and the word "generate" must be used exclusively for describing that event.

    A gas operated electricity-generator "generates" energy in the same way a bolt carrier generates an impact force- it takes energy from one source and converts it into a different kind of energy. A cartridge detonates and generates energy- converts the potential energy of the primer/powder into combustion energy; to propel the bullet, and to force the carrier back. From the energy of the cartridge detonation, the carrier is mass in motion... just like the bullet in flight. When it hits something, more energy is converted from one kind to another- the velocity of a mass colliding with a mass generates impact force. If you don't like the word "generate" for this application, I'll be happy to use any word you like.... but my point remains true: there are two distinct impact forces imparted on the shoulder of the shooter.

    The question was: which is greater?

    Impact force being a very difficult thing to calculate, I don't know. The first is the opposing reaction of the mass of the entire rifle in response to the cartridge throwing energy in the other direction. The second is merely the mass of the carrier, whose impact force is being almost immediately buffered by the buffering components. Seems to me this, and the fact the sources of energy will generally generate greater forces than the opposing reactions to the initial energy event, would lead one to believe there's no way in hell the secondary impact force could be greater.

    Here's this, also:

    https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&t...erate&safe=off

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by K.L. Davis View Post
    Of course it does... Ek = 1/2 mv2
    Exactly

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by K.L. Davis View Post
    Not exactly... that is the conventional theory and true for two rifles that do nothing but fire a projectile - if all other things are identical, the lighter of the two rifles will have a higher recoil.

    But keep in mind that a lot of the potential energy from firing the cartridge is lost as heat, light and noise; if we capture some of that energy (in the form of high pressure gas at the gas port) and turn the potential energy into work (as in accelerating the BCG), the additional kinetic energy from buffering, slowing, stopping and returning the accelerated BCG will add to the recoil... the faster the bolt carrier accelerates, the more kinetic energy.

    In the famous Dual M4 High Fidelity Gymnasticator, the top rifle is fired but the gas is directed to cycle the BCG in the bottom rifle - the bottom rifle is still going to have "recoil"... even though it was not fired, that recoil generated by the bottom rifle would be in addition to the "equal and opposite" reaction the top rifle experiences from firing the projectile.



    In theory, the combination of recoil from the top and bottom rifles would be equal to the total recoil if the rifle was fired in it standard configuration, but you have to admit that part of that "total" recoil impulse is generated by the BCG, independent of the actual opposite reaction of accelerating the projectile... therefore the more kinetic energy that BCG makes, the greater the recoil will be.
    I hope I can explain this clearly-
    Recoil is the physical manifestation of Newton's law of equal and opposite reactions to acceleration. The BCG does not generate more recoil because it's using energy that would have otherwise been causing recoil elsewhere. In the case of the twin ARs, you are adding the mass of the second BCG & buffer. While the remote BCG & buffer is being acted upon, the BCG & buffer is still in place in the native rifle, reducing free recoil.

    The equal/opposite law applies in both directions. As the BCG & buffer are accelerated towards the rear of the rifle, the recoil of that acceleration pushes forward. The acceleration/recoil of the BCG & buffer again changes direction as the BCG & buffer stops accelerating towards the rear of the rifle and starts decelerating. It changes again as the spring accelerates everything forward and again changes when the BCG & buffer decelerates to a full stop as the bolt goes into battery. Greater reciprocating mass does not generate more recoil, it just stores a greater percentage of the recoil energy
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

    http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
    I am American

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    I hope I can explain this clearly-
    Recoil is the physical manifestation of Newton's law of equal and opposite reactions to acceleration. The BCG does not generate more recoil because it's using energy that would have otherwise been causing recoil elsewhere. In the case of the twin ARs, you are adding the mass of the second BCG & buffer. While the remote BCG & buffer is being acted upon, the BCG & buffer is still in place in the native rifle, reducing free recoil.

    The equal/opposite law applies in both directions. As the BCG & buffer are accelerated towards the rear of the rifle, the recoil of that acceleration pushes forward. The acceleration/recoil of the BCG & buffer again changes direction as the BCG & buffer stops accelerating towards the rear of the rifle and starts decelerating. It changes again as the spring accelerates everything forward and again changes when the BCG & buffer decelerates to a full stop as the bolt goes into battery. Greater reciprocating mass does not generate more recoil, it just stores a greater percentage of the recoil energy
    I'm sure none of us believe the DI system somehow creates additional energy- nobody's making that argument.

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by K.L. Davis View Post
    ...therefore the more kinetic energy that BCG makes, the greater the recoil will be.
    I'd argue that the bolt group doesn't make any energy. It stores then releases energy generated by the propellant. The bolt group in effect is the second ball in a Newtons Cradle.

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK18Pilot View Post
    I'd argue that the bolt group doesn't make any energy. It stores then releases energy generated by the propellant. The bolt group in effect is the second ball in a Newtons Cradle.
    No, it doesn't create energy. But it does generate impact force.

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