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Thread: Why do mfgs still make carbine length gas systems?

  1. #81
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    The AR and the Bayonet Gods
    When the M4 was being developed, the bayonet Gods walked the Earth. The goal was to come up with a fully functional AR that was as compact as possible but homage had to be paid. The new AR had to mount a bayonet although the venerable pigsticker had long been abandoned by the Europeans as "barbaric". Ok, so the Bayonet Gods didn't walk the whole Earth, but they owned the U.S.

    There is an optimal spot to tap the gasses of a rifle to operate the action. Any further or closer than that and it gets more difficult to tune. To make the M16 shorter, the designers had to move the gas port closer to the chamber. They went with a barrel as short as possible with the gas port located to allow a bayonet to be mounted and that barrel length happened to be 14 inches. Then they added a half inch to hedge their bets and that set the barrel and gas length for the new M4 carbine.

    To make the M4 civilian legal, the barrel was by necessity, lengthened to 16 inches. Some makers pinned muzzle devices. I recall the CAR-15 clone offered by, I believe, Rock River that had an 11 inch barrel and a long CAR style flash hider permanently installed to make up the remaining 5 inches. Believe it or not, the 16 inch "M4" received heavy criticism because it could not mount a bayonet. In response, Armalite came up with what we now call the "mid-length". It was strictly to appease the Bayonet Gods. The fact it proved to be a softer shooting rifle was a serendipitous side effect. It only makes sense, however, as the rifle length system is softer shooting than the carbine and much more forgiving of a wider range of ammunition.

    223 Ammo
    223 ammo is not underpowered when used as intended. It makes full pressure when used in chambers designed for 223 spec ammo. The 5.56x45 chamber is designed to allow a bit more powder to be crammed into the case to make more velocity without experiencing higher than normal pressures, the same trick Roy Weatherby used in his proprietary calibers. More bullet jump is used, which gives benchresters and other accuracy buffs fits.

    While NATO pressures are listed as being higher than SAAMI, they do not compare as they are measured by two completely different methods. So it isn't that 223 ammo is underpowered, it's that the 5.56x45 chamber doesn't allow 223 ammo to make full pressure
    Last edited by MistWolf; 10-08-13 at 23:19.
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  2. #82
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    My question has been answered. I have also learned a lot from many of the expert responses...very informative. Thanks.
    Last edited by LoveAR; 10-08-13 at 22:27.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerhelo View Post
    I like my mid length rifles but recently bought a DD version 1, it has quickly become my favorite rifle. I like the recoil of the carbine more. Just my 2 cents.
    Right on! I agree brother.
    Last edited by LoveAR; 10-09-13 at 09:32.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    The AR and the Bayonet Gods
    When the M4 was being developed, the bayonet Gods walked the Earth. The goal was to come up with a fully functional AR that was as compact as possible but homage had to be paid. The new AR had to mount a bayonet although the venerable pigsticker had long been abandoned by the Europeans as "barbaric". Ok, so the Bayonet Gods didn't walk the whole Earth, but they owned the U.S.

    There is an optimal spot to tap the gasses of a rifle to operate the action. Any further or closer than that and it gets more difficult to tune. To make the M16 shorter, the designers had to move the gas port closer to the chamber. They went with a barrel as short as possible with the gas port located to allow a bayonet to be mounted and that barrel length happened to be 14 inches. Then they added a half inch to hedge their bets and that set the barrel and gas length for the new M4 carbine.

    To make the M4 civilian legal, the barrel was by necessity, lengthened to 16 inches. Some makers pinned muzzle devices. I recall the CAR-15 clone offered by, I believe, Rock River that had an 11 inch barrel and a long CAR style flash hider permanently installed to make up the remaining 5 inches. Believe it or not, the 16 "M4" received heavy criticism because it could not mount a bayonet. In response, Armalite came up with what we now call the "mid-length". It was strictly to appease the Bayonet Gods. The fact it proved to be a softer shooting rifle was a serendipitous side effect. It only makes sense, however, as the rifle length system is softer shooting than the carbine and much more forgiving of a wider range of ammunition.

    223 Ammo
    223 ammo is not underpowered when used as intended. It makes full pressure when used in chambers designed for 223 spec ammo. The 5.56x45 chamber is designed to allow a bit more powder to be crammed into the case to make more velocity without experiencing higher than normal pressures, the same trick Roy Weatherby used in his proprietary calibers. More bullet jump is used, which gives benchresters and other accuracy buffs fits.

    While NATO pressures are listed as being higher than SAAMI, they do not compare as they are measured by two completely different methods. So it isn't that 223 ammo is underpowered, it's that the 5.56x45 chamber doesn't allow 223 ammo to make full pressur
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  5. #85
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    I will say this...my DDM4V1 shot almost the same as a DDM4V7...both were LW same muzzle device...so a proper carbine spec'ed out will shoot really nice

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehun View Post
    I will say this...my DDM4V1 shot almost the same as a DDM4V7...both were LW same muzzle device...so a proper carbine spec'ed out will shoot really nice
    There you go. Thanks!

    My 16" AR carbines are very accurate and a joy to shoot.
    Last edited by LoveAR; 10-09-13 at 09:31.

  7. #87
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    "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    ... it isn't that 223 ammo is underpowered, it's that the 5.56x45 chamber doesn't allow 223 ammo to make full pressure
    So theoretically this supports something I've been led to believe: if you shoot a 5.56-chambered carbine-gassed weapon with .223 ammo most of the time, it will save wear and tear on the BCG and somewhat negate the minor durability advantage of the midlength system.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    So it isn't that 223 ammo is underpowered, it's that the 5.56x45 chamber doesn't allow 223 ammo to make full pressure
    I don't see how this is possible.
    The case must obturate with both case and chamber types.
    Jack Leuba
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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehun View Post
    I will say this...my DDM4V1 shot almost the same as a DDM4V7...both were LW same muzzle device...so a proper carbine spec'ed out will shoot really nice
    How do you like your V7? I have a V1 & V5 both in LW configuration and so far so good, a V7 LW will likely be my next AR purchase...

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