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Thread: FBI is issuing Hobby Guns to Agents!!??!

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikakiah View Post
    That's basically what I was thinking. What grade do people around here consider RRA to be? Better than Bushmaster, DPMS, worse than PSA (I honestly don't know how the makers beyond the handful respected here as solid quality rank)?

    These are going to officers who do what? Put maybe 1000 rounds a year tops through them, and probably just in training and maybe some personal time? Surely a mid/lower mid-grade rifle is adaquate for that?

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    Those are all commercial grade hobby guns, to include Oly, Stag, LWRC, S&W M&P15 and everything else that's not a Colt, LMT, DD, BCM, which are military grade weapons. Same for Noveske and KAC, which are built beyond the TDP and what I classify as 'boutique' military grade guns, because of the additional quality built into them, as well as the associated costs. The M&P15 is the best of the commercial grade guns IMHO.
    For God and the soldier we adore, In time of danger, not before! The danger passed, and all things righted, God is forgotten and the soldier slighted." - Rudyard Kipling

  2. #42
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    I've carried a RRA carbine for 10 years and will argue that they are adequate for what most LE agencies use them for. Except for instructors' or academy weapons, they likely will never see more than 500 rounds per year. If properly maintaines, they will function properly.

    As I recall, DEA selected the RRA 10-11 years go when many if us didn't know then what we know now and "mil spec" wasn't tossed around as much in the firearms media. Two of the big names in ARs, Colt and Bushmaster had their supporters and detractors; and RRA was a respected name. My RRA was more accurate for me than the two Colt M4s I was previously issued. Mine has run just under 9k rounds without a malfunction that was a result of RRA not building a mil spec gun. Granted, I don't run mine as hard as some, so I don't know it's failure point. I keep it maintained and have had it armorer refurbished just before 7k just because. I've seen a couple of guns have mechanical problems over the years, so I know that they can have their issues. On the other hand any AR that is poorly maintained by people who aren't overly motivated to take care of their weapon will have problems. I remember watching someone pull out a carbine on an extremely cold day and find all the gunk left over from a number if firings and no cleaning had froze. Surprisingly the zero degree charging handle didn't break off from the force applied to draw the bolt back.

    I could carry a more robust personally owned carbine in duty, but if I would run the risk of it sitting in an evidence vault possibly for years if it was used in a critical incident. I'd rather a department gun sit in the vault rather than my own. That said, I do plan on adding a top tier AR to my collection to shoot and train with one of these days.
    Last edited by walkin' trails; 10-15-13 at 21:24.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkin' trails View Post
    I've carried a RRA carbine for 10 years and will argue that they are adequate for what most LE agencies use them for. Except for instructors' or academy weapons, they likely will never see more than 500 rounds per year. If properly maintained, they will function properly.
    That sounds about right. We have a mixture of Armalite and Bushmaster carbines along with 400 Colt M16A1 rifles. Some people have personally purchased RRA carbines. Most people shoot 1200-1600 rounds during the carbine course and less than 200 rounds per year during qualifications. Most carbines I have seen have less than 5.000 rounds through them and with proper lubrication they have not given us any problems.

    I replaced the barrel on my RRA carbine yesterday. After three years it had just over 11,400 rounds fired through it. I replaced the barrel and bolt when the bolt closed on the Field gauge. Up until now the carbine never gave me any problems.

    The tactical team has Bushmaster carbines with well over 20,000 rounds on them and they keep running.

    I haven't seen too many Colt carbines, so my maintenance experience with them is limited. How many rounds can you fire through a Colt barrel before you have to replace it? I would like to hear opinions from personnel with first hand experience and not what someone read on the internet.

    I know that many people believe you should spend the extra cash, but for budgetary reasons some agencies are going with lower tier AR carbines. If you are purchasing 300-500 carbines an additional $300 per unit adds up. Most LEO will not shoot 10,000 rounds through their carbines, so purchase price weighs heavily on the decision on what is purchased.
    Last edited by T2C; 10-16-13 at 11:30.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerinTPA View Post
    Those are all commercial grade hobby guns, to include Oly, Stag, LWRC, S&W M&P15 and everything else that's not a Colt, LMT, DD, BCM, which are military grade weapons. Same for Noveske and KAC, which are built beyond the TDP and what I classify as 'boutique' military grade guns, because of the additional quality built into them, as well as the associated costs. The M&P15 is the best of the commercial grade guns IMHO.
    I've never heard anybody call LWRC hobby-grade before. Is this based on something - and if so, what - or are you simply picking up the torch laid down by MarkM?
    " Nil desperandum - Never Despair. That is a motto for you and me. All are not dead; and where there is a spark of patriotic fire, we will rekindle it. "
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  5. #45
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    Just because it isnt Mil Spec doesnt mean it immediately falls apart at the sign of trouble....

  6. #46
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    I find it ironic when agencies go with a commerical brand name because the guy who decides what to purchase saw a glossy color ad in a gun rag. Price point wise these commercial guns are no less expensive than say a basic Colt, LMT, BCM. I needed a good laugh the other day so I dropped by my local CTD, they had $1700 on their Bushmaster Patrolman's M4s and only $1100 on their 6920s.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose-Knuckle View Post
    I find it ironic when agencies go with a commerical brand name because the guy who decides what to purchase saw a glossy color ad in a gun rag. Price point wise these commercial guns are no less expensive than say a basic Colt, LMT, BCM. I needed a good laugh the other day so I dropped by my local CTD, they had $1700 on their Bushmaster Patrolman's M4s and only $1100 on their 6920s.
    $1,700 is steep. Most carbines in my area are priced $800-$1,100 at full retail.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose-Knuckle View Post
    I find it ironic when agencies go with a commerical brand name because the guy who decides what to purchase saw a glossy color ad in a gun rag. Price point wise these commercial guns are no less expensive than say a basic Colt, LMT, BCM. I needed a good laugh the other day so I dropped by my local CTD, they had $1700 on their Bushmaster Patrolman's M4s and only $1100 on their 6920s.
    Exactly. Some folks just don't understand simple economics and economies of scale when comparing a solid AR vs a marginal subpar one. It's almost pathetic in this industry as just this week at the store I was told that the Bushmaster rifle is the best by the guy behind the counter - and he really believes it to be true. And because he is behind the counter people think he is "in the know". I bought the Colt M4 because I wanted a Colt M4 with the new roll mark for my collection. And the guy was still trying to convince me that the bushmaster was the one to buy. And these aren't just dumb uneducated folks parroting this stuff. A well respected custom firearms machinist told me back in 2007 that RRA was great quality .. I actually bought one and put up with their terrible customer service and extensive backlog to receive my gun and well it wasn't all that.

    It's a buyer beware industry for sure. So many look a likes with very few real deals.
    Originally Posted by Iraqgunz
    This is 2012. The world is going to end this December and people are still trying to debate the merits of piece of shit, cost cutting crap AR's. Really?

  9. #49
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    If a small police agency saves several thousand dollars to purchase equipment that will see low use, it is understandable. It's either purchase what you can afford or do without patrol carbines.

    Most of the carbines carried by non SWAT officers will see very little use and will be sold before they have much more wear than break in.

    Local gun shop employees who brag that a police agency purchased a particular brand of carbine do not understand the economics behind the decision on what was purchased.

    When you go into a gun shop to make a purchase, arm yourself with information and ignore the bullshit.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fjallhrafn View Post
    I've never heard anybody call LWRC hobby-grade before. Is this based on something - and if so, what - or are you simply picking up the torch laid down by MarkM?
    I've never heard anyone refer to LWRC as a military grade gun, except for themselves and uninformed fan boys. Many commercial grade AR manufactures also make that disingenuous claim, to include gun store sales clerks, but are not TDP spec'd guns, despite what their marketing department, hearsay or the errornet says. If you choose to believe that they are, good on you. FYI, MarkM is entitled to his opinion on anything he desires to post on...same as you, and no, I am not picking up a torch carried by anyone.
    Last edited by RogerinTPA; 10-16-13 at 14:54.
    For God and the soldier we adore, In time of danger, not before! The danger passed, and all things righted, God is forgotten and the soldier slighted." - Rudyard Kipling

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