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Thread: Failures to extract: Enhanced BCG and DD V7

  1. #41
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    Yeesh, guys, a bit traditionalist? Are you really criticizing someone for trying to make an already-reliable rifle even better with some parts swaps? To be honest, I find the whole "Why would you try to upgrade a reliable rifle?!" philosophy pretty ridiculous.

    Why swap an A2 flash hider for a Smith Vortex or Surefire 3P flash hider then? Why swap a carbine-length RE for an A5 system? Why swap a mil-spec trigger for a Geissele SSA? Why swap an aluminum magazine for a PMAG? Why swap something that's already reliable for something else?

    Because it makes the gun even better. The LMT enhanced bolt carrier does that in carbine and mid-length gas systems, just like an SSA or a PMAG or an A5 buffer system. The bolt does too. From all of the research and data posted on the LMT enhanced BCG, this issue has nothing to do with him swapping in the BCG and everything to do with a lemon, which all manufacturers make from time to time.

    Can we stop the dogpile until the OP gets a new bolt (and reproduces the malfunction)? Or could someone post direct evidence of a consistent history of properly-functioning LMT enhanced BCGs causing issues in carbines and midlengths?

    Dear Lord. I'm glad you guys weren't around when PMAGs were introduced. This isn't just mindless tinkering. Putting in the LMT enhanced BCG can cause marked improvements in a gun's function and longevity. OP tried to do that. It was rational and reasonable.

    ETA: please let us know how the gun runs with the DD BCG. If it runs fine, I'd ask that LMT replace the whole bolt. It's probably the extractor, but could also be the springs, some weird tolerance issue, or any other number of things. Getting a whole new bolt will be the only way to get rid of all the possible variables and start fresh.
    Last edited by DreadPirateMoyer; 10-24-13 at 13:46.

  2. #42
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    I think you are missing the point here.

    Quote Originally Posted by DreadPirateMoyer View Post
    Yeesh, guys, a bit traditionalist? Are you really criticizing someone for trying to make an already-reliable rifle even better with some parts swaps? To be honest, I find the whole "Why would you try to upgrade a reliable rifle?!" philosophy pretty ridiculous.

    Why swap an A2 flash hider for a Smith Vortex or Surefire 3P flash hider then? Why swap a carbine-length RE for an A5 system? Why swap a mil-spec trigger for a Geissele SSA? Why swap an aluminum magazine for a PMAG? Why swap something that's already reliable for something else?

    Because it makes the gun even better. The LMT enhanced bolt carrier does that in carbine and mid-length gas systems, just like an SSA or a PMAG or an A5 buffer system. The bolt does too. From all of the research and data posted on the LMT enhanced BCG, this issue has nothing to do with him swapping in the BCG and everything to do with a lemon, which all manufacturers make from time to time.

    Can we stop the dogpile until the OP gets a new bolt (and reproduces the malfunction)? Or could someone post direct evidence of a consistent history of properly-functioning LMT enhanced BCGs causing issues in carbines and midlengths?

    Dear Lord. I'm glad you guys weren't around when PMAGs were introduced. This isn't just mindless tinkering. Putting in the LMT enhanced BCG can cause marked improvements in a gun's function and longevity. OP tried to do that. It was rational and reasonable.



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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
    New DD V7 lightweight carbine, 16" with mid-length gas system. New LMT Enhanced BCG. First range trip today. Did not clean beforehand but did add extra EWL to the BCG prior to firing. Was pressed for time so I only popped off ~ 60rds; just wanted to zero the irons and Aimpoint T-1 then plink a little bit. Ammo was all XM855.

    I'd say in the last 20 or 25 rounds I got a total of 4 failures to extract. They extracted manually when I let the carrier slam home on the spent case once the subsequent jam had been cleared. They were a little stiff on extraction but not like I had to beat the charging handle or anything. No bulging of the case or undue scrape marks. The rim had been engaged by the extractor and it had dug in a little but did NOT rip through the rim; apparently the extractor let go and left the cartridge stuck.

    Got home a field stripped it for cleaning and looked carefully at the extractor. No pieces were missing and it was seated below the other lugs without a round in the bolt face (I guess like it should with proper spring tension).

    Questions:

    1) Is a proper extractor designed to NOT hold the rim long enough to tear through it? i.e. to release at some point?

    2) Are LMT Enhanced BCG's known for extraction issues?

    3) Is the XM855 a likely culprit? The spent stuck cases were a little stiff to get out but nowhere near as "stuck" as some I've encountered before where you have to beat the charging handle, slam the butt down, or use a rod to knock it out.



    ***Before someone asks, there was nothing wrong with the DD BCG. I just had a brand new, latest version of the LMT Enhanced in storage that I bought from Rainier a month or so ago and they are a little easier to clean. The DD was soaked in EWL and wrapped up in a gallon ziplock to hang on to.
    What was wrong with the stock DDM4V7lw BCG? I have one and it works just fine.

  4. #44
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    I really think when swapping parts that you need to have a baseline to compare to.

  5. #45
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    Am I? If I am, I don't see it, but then again, I guess that goes along with missing the point.

    I see an OP with a likely bad bolt that needs to shoot the gun with his DD BCG before moving on. I also see a bunch of people who have probably never shot an LMT enhanced BCG dogpiling the OP for violating a weird firearms-build philosophy that doesn't hold water.

    But I very well may be missing something.
    Last edited by DreadPirateMoyer; 10-24-13 at 13:51.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreadPirateMoyer View Post
    Yeesh, guys, a bit traditionalist? Are you really criticizing someone for trying to make an already-reliable rifle even better with some parts swaps? To be honest, I find the whole "Why would you try to upgrade a reliable rifle?!" philosophy pretty ridiculous.
    Who's criticizing? I certainly hope I'm not, I chimed in because I was thinking about doing the same thing with my DDM4s (was and still am a newb, still very much learning) until further reading on the topic made me decide against it (accounts docmented on M4C and other forums of enhanced BCG/Bolt induce malfunctions in previously well functioning guns and learned the consensus is the enhanced BCG/Bolt is a great solution for over gased carbines which the DDM4 V7 is not).

    I see it as a bunch of guys trying to help another AR enthusiast out who's also likely a fellow patriot, I didn't sense any malice anywhere in any post I've read.

    Quote Originally Posted by DreadPirateMoyer View Post
    Why swap an A2 flash hider for a Smith Vortex or Surefire 3P flash hider then? Why swap a carbine-length RE for an A5 system? Why swap a mil-spec trigger for a Geissele SSA? Why swap an aluminum magazine for a PMAG? Why swap something that's already reliable for something else?
    This is an apples to oranges comparison. You're discussing making changes to the weapon that either won't alter or will have minimal impact on the way the gun cycles. DDM4s are regarded as being properly gased, so essentially there is no need to change anything and it shouldn't come as a surprise that tinkering can induce malfunctions.

    One of the best pieces of advice I've read on M4C is shoot the gun at least 500 rounds stock before deciding what needs to be changed. That advice alone could avoid many headaches.
    Last edited by PatrioticDisorder; 10-24-13 at 14:44.

  7. #47
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    A few people in this thread are criticizing along with implications of ignorance; you can scroll through and see them, but either way, that's not really the point. The point is he's probably got a turd bolt and he needs to test it with a DD BCG to confirm.

    I've read this forum front to back on the LMT enhanced BCG before installing it within all my rifles and didn't see any reports showing it induced malfunctions in non-SBRs that were working well. Would you be able to link them to me? I may have missed them because I suck at the search button. I mean that in all honesty, too. I have a lot of experience with them, but I could always learn more if I didn't come across something.

    With that said, I take a very large disagreement with the claim that those are apples-to-oranges comparisons. Every single one of those modifications can induce failures or make the rifle run less optimally. A bad trigger can lose its second stage, lose its adjustability and malfunction, not reset properly during rapid fire and cause a delay (like Wilson Combat TTUs have been reported to do), and can lock up the safety so it cannot be engaged, and that's ignoring breakages from crappily-made parts. Bad buffer systems can induce bolt bounce, cause short strokes, or exacerbate recoil, or in the case of those pneumatic turd-buffers, simply break and fail to function at all. Bad magazines can cause double feeds, failures to feed, and are usually the #1 culprit for a malfunctioning gun that would otherwise work properly. Deviating in any way from the standards (mil-spec trigger, carbine buffer system, aluminum magazines with mil-spec followers) could create any number of malfunctions in the firearm, yet we still do it because most of these upgrades make the firearm function better if we use quality parts (Geissele SSA, VLTOR A5, Magpul PMAGs).

    The LMT enhanced BCG falls into that same category. Messing with the BCG can induce malfunctions just like messing with the trigger, buffer system, or magazines -- yet all of them have room to be improved over the standard, and all of us generally deviate from the standard for that reason. Attempting to improve the function of an already-reliable rifle with the LMT Enhanced BCG is not irrational or unreasonable (at the very minimum, even in a properly-gassed gun, the bolt carrier will still delay the bolt unlocking so that chamber pressures are lower and allow easier extraction than with a standard BCG, and the bolt is much, much stronger, reducing the chance of breakage in a critical moment), and swapping it in follows the same philosophy many of us follow in other aspects of our rifle's construction.

    Your last point is very valid. Let's hope the OP jumps on the DD BCG to try to isolate the problem.
    Last edited by DreadPirateMoyer; 10-24-13 at 15:16.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreadPirateMoyer View Post
    With that said, I take a very large disagreement with the claim that those are apples-to-oranges comparisons. Every single one of those modifications can induce failures or make the rifle run less optimally. A bad trigger can lose its second stage, lose its adjustability and malfunction, not reset properly during rapid fire and cause a delay (like Wilson Combat TTUs have been reported to do), and can lock up the safety so it cannot be engaged, and that's ignoring breakages from crappily-made parts. Bad buffer systems can induce bolt bounce, cause short strokes, or exacerbate recoil, or in the case of those pneumatic turd-buffers, simply break and fail to function at all. Bad magazines can cause double feeds, failures to feed, and are usually the #1 culprit for a malfunctioning gun that would otherwise work properly. Deviating in any way from the standards (mil-spec trigger, carbine buffer system, aluminum magazines with mil-spec followers) could create any number of malfunctions in the firearm, yet we still do it because most of these upgrades make the firearm function better if we use quality parts (Geissele SSA, VLTOR A5, Magpul PMAGs). The LMT enhanced BCG falls into that same category. Messing with the BCG can induce malfunctions just like messing with the trigger, buffer system, or magazines -- yet all of them have room to be improved over the standard, and all of us generally deviate from the standard for that reason. Attempting to improve the function of an already-reliable rifle with the LMT Enhanced BCG is not irrational or unreasonable, and follows the same philosophy many of us follow in other aspects of our rifle's construction.

    Your last point is very valid. Let's hope the OP jumps on the DD BCG to try to isolate the problem.
    Agree on the buffer tube, but you specifically mentioned quality parts like the Geissele, you didn't mention any other trigger... And besides the occasional bad mag that any manufacturer can put out, Pmags have a pretty good rep. We'll have to agree to disagree on putting the enhanced BCG/bolt into a perfectly functioning gun, especially with the cost of that "upgrade." I fully agree on the last part, I think everyone who chimed in wants to see the OP get his gun running.

  9. #49
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    Right, but that's the point: swapping old parts with new parts is always a risk, but so long as you do it with quality parts, it's generally an upgrade. Same goes with the LMT enhanced BCG, especially until people can cite direct evidence of malfunctions in a non-SBR. Otherwise, it has great advantages, just like other quality parts.

  10. #50
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    Isn't the dual extractor spring design of the LMT E-bolt quite similar to the KAC E3 extractor design?

    Many here have reported benefits using the E-Carrier in their otherwise properly gassed factory guns, BufordTJustice and Jaxman7
    come to mind using 14.5 mid-lengths and Grant's SBR thread. It seems a informal consensus has emerged among some that the E-Carrier has benefits not just for over gassed guns but can also aid extraction reliability by ensuring lower chamber pressures before extraction begins and can help lower recoil impulse.

    I don't see how the E-carrier could even cause the problems the op is having, leaving the bolt as the culprit for whatever reason.

    The hostility toward the entire E-BCG in this thread is confusing.

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