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Thread: Lessons learned in combat. Limitations of the AR-15. "what training doesn't teach"

  1. #21
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    Eldest son, yes. Im sure thats where they got the idea. As for running weapons dry, the USMC doesn't teach this. It was something that we tried in an attempt to lesson the sand/ build up. All Marines in my unit were issued an otis cleaning kit with (1) small bottle of break free so using heavy lube wasnt really an option because we didn't have enough a large amount of lube to use. If you've ever watched Generation Kill, the Marines in that show dealt with similar problems. However, we did have a ton of LSA which I would never use on an M-16. LSA is a very thick lube used on heavy machine guns.

    Quote Originally Posted by vicious_cb View Post
    Modern version of "Eldest Son" perhaps? Anyway its a damn shame that troops are still getting taught to run guns dry in the desert. I mean the M4 dust tests PROVED that running heavy lube in extreme dust conditions made guns more reliable, you would think that an official test run by the DoD would have some merit.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSD_405 View Post
    Have you ever seen Iraqi sand? Its as fine as baby powder. It DEFINITELY AND WITHOUT QUESTION, slows the bcg down to the point where it wouldnt cycle. When you're in such an environment you have to remember that you dont get a chance to clean your rifle everyday. Lubing the rifle would worsened this without question. Every time the wind blew over there, it was like getting sandblasted. Also, we deployed with brand new FN M-16 A4's. These werent beat up old Colts. Some magazines were new and some were probably several years old. To say that these lessons do not need to be remembered is down right offensive. If our boys are face with another desert war environment, they will have some of the same problems. Ive been in law enforcement ever since I got out of the military. Moreover, I have been a firearms instructor and armorer for the past four years and Ive never seen our AR's malfunction the way they did over there.
    I haven't seen the Iraq dust, but I've seen enough of the A'stan "moon dust" that there's still some in clothes I brought back. I'm a self acknowledged Fobbit that didn't even have a rifle issued, so I can't comment on that.

    However, given it's "Fine as baby powder" (which I pretty much agree with), lets have someone roll their BCG in a tray of baby powder, lube it up, and shoot it.

    Volunteers? If I had a closer range and my wife would give me half a day, I'd do it.

  3. #23
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    I was in Desert Storm, as a Brad gunner and dismount leader. In my platoon, at least, we ran everything dripping, including the port firing weapons, M 240s, 60s, etc. the biggest problems we had were from bad magazines. We would keep big spray bottles of CLP and oil in the tracks and hose them down a couple times a day. Before the ground war began, it was clean, dry and wrapped in garbage bags. Once the shooting started though....


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

  4. #24
    Join Date
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    Lack of lubrication and worn magazines are the leading causes of stoppages in the AR platform.

    I did tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, not a single stoppage in a few thousand rounds fired in anger. Not a single stoppage reported by my men in their several thousand rounds fired.

    Back in 03/04 I did not lubricate with the fervor that I did afterward, but it showed that a light to moderate coat of lubricant is far superior to a dry BCG.
    Jack Leuba
    Director, Military and Government Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

  5. #25
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    "You can run wet and dirty, but not dirty and dry." -Larry Vickers.

  6. #26
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    Have you ever seen Iraqi sand? Its as fine as baby powder. It DEFINITELY AND WITHOUT QUESTION, slows the bcg down to the point where it wouldnt cycle. When you're in such an environment you have to remember that you dont get a chance to clean your rifle everyday.
    If you have time to eat, shit, or wipe your ass you have time to clean your rifle.

    Clear it, shotgun it open, wipe the moon dust off the carrier and inside the upper, a couple drops of lube, put it back together. You don't even have to disassemble the bolt and risk losing something. A drive-on rag works perfectly and you can carry it with you in your on-body web gear.

    I've been one, and seen enough Joes to notice most don't service their magazines. Most wouldn't know a magazine brush if it bit 'em on the ass. Most don't know to wipe the dust off their rounds.



    Simple NCO shit that isn't taught any more. Ever seen the M16 maintenance comic book?

  7. #27
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    When somebody's battle drill includes, upon initial contact:

    - all warfighters break their M4s down shotgun-style
    - remove and disassemble the BCG
    - drop the bolt in 3rd World colon moon-dust

    (....which is the same moon-dust found in every arid environment 3rd World dungheap of a country, ffs.... )

    - nudge it about with one's toe for a bit to get a gooooood, even coat 'o' dust onnit, boy howdy!
    - extract it from said dust
    - lube the bolt
    - re-assemble and re-install the BCG
    - THEN react to contact and conduct whatever actions the fight requires....

    ....then and only then will dumping a lubed bolt in dust, applying more lube, and then seeing if it fires make any realistic sense whatsoever as a "test."

    What this rehash (yes, rehash; TRY to tell me we don't have recently-active lube and magazine threads, already...) has done, so far, is re-create a Point Break scene.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Utah
    Candle wax. Car wax. Mustache wax? Could be anything. Guy’s waxing his mustache at the beach. Gets sand in it. Wipes it off with a shoe. Shoe scuffs the counter.
    ...except that it was a sarcastic spitballing conversation in the move....but add internet and it's :SeriousGoodIdea,Bro:

    Add in laying leadership failures at the feet of the equipment....? No time to clean, my bleeding piles. That's not a reason, that's an excuse; biiiiig difference.
    Contractor scum, AAV

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