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Thread: Lessons learned in combat. Limitations of the AR-15. "what training doesn't teach"

  1. #11
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    I would like to know how many detractors of the AR15 platform have used other rifles in similar environments and can speak to their efficacy...

  2. #12
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    Sorry you lost me there with that. Have a good night and welcome to M4C.

    Quote Originally Posted by BCSD_405 View Post
    I hate that you had to experience this brother. We were never told to shoot our weapons dry. We were however, issued shoot through muzzle caps to reduce sand in the barrel. About once a week, our weapons to include machine guns were inspected by the platoon SGT or a CPL for cleanliness. I personally think that the phosphate coating it's self is textured rough enough to cause sand to adhere. Ive though about this so much over the past years. I would have loved to carry an AK but the enemy started putting exploding ammo in them so we never picked them up.



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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreadPirateMoyer View Post
    It's not a belief -- it's science. Those who choose to ignore it are simply acting on blind faith.
    Maintenance is not required, it will always fire when the trigger is pulled, insha'allah.

    Quote Originally Posted by BCSD_405 View Post
    Have you ever seen Iraqi sand? Its as fine as baby powder. It DEFINITELY AND WITHOUT QUESTION, slows the bcg down to the point where it wouldnt cycle. When you're in such an environment you have to remember that you dont get a chance to clean your rifle everyday. Lubing the rifle would worsened this without question.
    ...
    Moreover, I have been a firearms instructor and armorer for the past four years and Ive never seen our AR's malfunction the way they did over there.
    In my limited real world experience...
    I had an AF Capt who insisted as you did, that lube was bad in a desert environment. His M4 had problems. I applied heavy lube to my M4. Not a single problem. We both used new issue aluminum mags with tan followers.
    Last edited by Koshinn; 10-25-13 at 03:53.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  4. #14
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    Obviously I wouldn't lie about not being able to clean our weapons. Brother, every soldier and Marine over there wiped their bcg of with a rag and cleaned them every chance they got. It was our lifeline. I was out on the Syrian/Jordanian border and our fob consisted of little more than hesco barriers and cammie netting. Im speaking from my experience. I cant speak for yours. Ive seen soldiers and Marines sitting at Camp Al Asad that were living like kings in wooden huts with air conditioning. I doubt they had to worry about weapons maintenance. Ive discussed this issue with many vets since, that stated that they hadn't fired their rifle during their entire deployment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    And this is wrong. And before you ask yes I was in Iraq and I spent almost 5 years there as well as 1 year in A'stan. It is pretty well accepted that if you keep a good coat of good lube on the BCG it will actually put a protective layer between the BCG and the upper receiver. Quite honestly I don't accept the "we didn't have time for maintenance line" because although I wouldn't expect someone to stop in combat, had personnel simply wiped off the BCG with a rag and then re-lubed it they would have been fine.

  5. #15
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    Lessons learned in combat. Limitations of the AR-15. "what training doesn't t...

    Quote Originally Posted by bp7178 View Post
    I would like to know how many detractors of the AR15 platform have used other rifles in similar environments and can speak to their efficacy...
    Like an AK? I just did a google search that turned up nil.

    What I wanna know is how has the military not fixed the problems with soldiers not knowing how to lube their rifles quickly and properly? As far as time goes my buddies who fought there all said it was a lot of hurry up and wait.

    It sucks that a lot of these young guys had to figure it out the hard way.
    Last edited by britishtq; 10-25-13 at 03:55.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSD_405 View Post
    Have you ever seen Iraqi sand? Its as fine as baby powder. It DEFINITELY AND WITHOUT QUESTION, slows the bcg down to the point where it wouldnt cycle. When you're in such an environment you have to remember that you dont get a chance to clean your rifle everyday. Lubing the rifle would worsened this without question. Every time the wind blew over there, it was like getting sandblasted. Also, we deployed with brand new FN M-16 A4's. These werent beat up old Colts. Some magazines were new and some were probably several years old. To say that these lessons do not need to be remembered is down right offensive. If our boys are face with another desert war environment, they will have some of the same problems. Ive been in law enforcement ever since I got out of the military. Moreover, I have been a firearms instructor and armorer for the past four years and Ive never seen our AR's malfunction the way they did over there.
    Whoa, relax. It was just commentary on your lessons, elaborating on the real solutions to the problems you saw. No insults or slights meant. We just have a plethora of knowledge available here on M4C and I was trying to give you some insight on what we've learned (lube helps with everything, even sand; carbon build-up is essentially a non-factor with lube; piston systems don't add much to the game; Magpul followers will cure most problems in a quality, well-maintained magazine).

    If you don't want it, that's fine. Enjoy your time on M4C.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by britishtq View Post
    What I wanna know is how has the military not fixed the problems with soldiers not knowing how to lube their rifles quickly and properly? As far as time goes my buddies who fought there all said it was a lot of hurry up and wait.

    It sucks that a lot of these young guys had to figure it out the hard way.
    Institutional inertia (slow to change and update TTPs). People repeating what their daddies or a SNCO in boot camp told them. Urban (desert) legends. The idea that a fighting condition weapon should start the day looking like an inspection condition weapon. Etc.
    Last edited by Koshinn; 10-25-13 at 04:01.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  8. #18
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    We received several reports of booby trapped AK's and were told not to pick them up. Even heard one storyy about a Marine that went to clear an Ak and when he pulled the charging handle back, it exploded. We got an intel brief about ammo that was filled with some sort of explosive charge or rigged to blow up. There use to be a video on youtube about this. I think it was through AP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    Sorry you lost me there with that. Have a good night and welcome to M4C.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSD_405 View Post
    We received several reports of booby trapped AK's and were told not to pick them up. Even heard one storyy about a Marine that went to clear an Ak and when he pulled the charging handle back, it exploded. We got an intel brief about ammo that was filled with some sort of explosive charge or rigged to blow up. There use to be a video on youtube about this. I think it was through AP.
    Modern version of "Eldest Son" perhaps? Anyway its a damn shame that troops are still getting taught to run guns dry in the desert. I mean the M4 dust tests PROVED that running heavy lube in extreme dust conditions made guns more reliable, you would think that an official test run by the DoD would have some merit.

  10. #20
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    In 05 me and 3 other AF cops were sent to Iraq to be part of one of those in lieu of assignments for the Army. (MNFI) We did convoy duty from Talil to Taji. I was assigned to the AF 50 cal school at the time so I was picked to be the 50 gunner. Our Army counterparts wanted us to run our M4s dry as a bone but our 50s dripping. Up in the turret I always had plenty of oil so I was able to keep the bolt wet on my M4 but when we did PCC/PCIs before a mission the convoy commander would want us to show the TC our bolts to make sure they were dry.

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