Is "Muzzle Up" Viable?

[Jay Cunningham]

I would like to start a discussion on muzzle up gun handling techniques and ready positions, i.e. high ready, norte, "sabrina", etc...

This thread is an extenstion of a discussion that myself and NCPatrolAR are having with some Tactical Response instructors on another forum. TR puts heavy emphasis on the technique, and both NCPatrolAR and I have serious doubts about it.

Have any of you been instructed to use these techniques? Do any of you teach these techniques? Can you explain, if you endorse them, why they are a better altenative than muzzle down techniques?

[Derek_Connor]

I never seen it taught with pistol before, but muzzle up has its place when it comes to rifle. Chris Costa was the first one to introduce it to me, and depending on your situation, moving around friendlies, barricades etc, keeping your muzzle oriented up instead of dropping it down to the ground makes more sense..

[Oscar 319]

All those AK's muzzles in the air look like an Iraqi wedding.

The only experience I have with Sabrina is don't do it unless you want to get heckled about "bird hunting with grand-daddy's shotgun!"

[Oscar 319]

I never seen it taught with pistol before, but muzzle up has its place when it comes to rifle. Chris Costa was the first one to introduce it to me, and depending on your situation, moving around friendlies, barricades etc, keeping your muzzle oriented up instead of dropping it down to the ground makes more sense..

A handgun with the muzzle up usually illicits a response involving Cagney and Lacey or TJ Hooker.



But hell, you can teach an old dog new tricks.

[SethB]

Works very well with handguns. A lot more awkward with rifles. It doesn't work at al indoors.

[Business_Casual]

Having read the thread in question, I think you are wasting your time and bandwidth. They won't agree with you and you/NCPatrolAR won't agree with them. That much is the only clear thing to emerge from that "discussion."

M_P

[RyanB]

I am sure it has a place, but unless I am force to use it for safety reasons I am not interested in doing it. Low ready puts the stock on my shoulder and I have only to raise it rather than shoulder it.

[texasfrog]

Works very well with handguns. A lot more awkward with rifles. It doesn't work at al indoors.

You absolutely must not know what you're talking about nor have you spent much time in a kill house. Do not be putting shit like that out, with that said...

A vast majority of the work I have done in training has been in a kill house or urban type scenario.
Think about this....
You're entering a primary entry point or just a room on target and you have your muzzle down, an unknown sees your muzzle pointing down and grabs the muzzle and pushes it down, with intent to take this fight to the ground, and who knows from there. You are now in a position where you have little to no power or distance between you and the unknown to react with your primary. Hadj gets the gun and kills you with your own heater.

Or this....

Same scenario but you have your weapon broken down (ready to strike at a combat high ready) when you pass through the threshhold and there's some stinky ass hadji there, you stand your ground and strike his ass in the chest because he's an unknown and you need to get him on the floor so you can finish your clearance. He is now on the floor trying to breath or about to kill over from your muzzle strike.
You do this instinctively because you don't know what his intent was, but you got him before he got you because of prepardiness.
You have 80% more power when you are striking from a high ready than if you were unprepared at the low ready.

There's a huge difference between the way we high ready and the pics in this thread, that's some keystone cop shit.
Don't get me wrong, there is a time, place, and event for low porting your weps.

[SethB]

My ceiling is lower than yours. If I had a 10.5 it would just barely clear. Unless I carry the stock down around my belt buckle.

Every house I've ever run did not have a ceiling. It had a catwalk. Limited time, three houses.

[SIMPLYDYNAMIC]

I never seen it taught with pistol before, but muzzle up has its place when it comes to rifle. Chris Costa was the first one to introduce it to me, and depending on your situation, moving around friendlies, barricades etc, keeping your muzzle oriented up instead of dropping it down to the ground makes more sense..

Brother, Keep in mind that its ONLY used when moving during IA type drills and its not a muzzle strait up thing its more angled... And like you mention... to avoid flagging teammates while reloading on the run.

Other that that its all down... Its takes longer to employ the weapon in that mode and when your in a "time is life situation" well then I think enough said.

You absolutely must not know what you're talking about nor have you spent much time in a kill house. Do not be putting shit like that out, with that said...

A vast majority of the work I have done in training has been in a kill house or urban type scenario.
Think about this....
You're entering a primary entry point or just a room on target and you have your muzzle down, an unknown sees your muzzle pointing down and grabs the muzzle and pushes it down, with intent to take this fight to the ground, and who knows from there. You are now in a position where you have little to no power or distance between you and the unknown to react with your primary. Hadj gets the gun and kills you with your own heater.

Or this....

Same scenario but you have your weapon broken down (ready to strike at a combat high ready) when you pass through the threshhold and there's some stinky ass hadji there, you stand your ground and strike his ass in the chest because he's an unknown and you need to get him on the floor so you can finish your clearance. He is now on the floor trying to breath or about to kill over from your muzzle strike.
You do this instinctively because you don't know what his intent was, but you got him before he got you because of prepardiness.
You have 80% more power when you are striking from a high ready than if you were unprepared at the low ready.

There's a huge difference between the way we high ready and the pics in this thread, that's some keystone cop shit.
Don't get me wrong, there is a time, place, and event for low porting your weps.

That's Dieter Philosophy... Which the teams took on and now have trashed... They have finally gotten smart and realized that the hand fighter can not influence the gunfighters methodologies. Last I checked if I entered a house and a Unknown grabbed my barrel he is no longer a Unknown... there are SOPs for that kind of thing in teams to deal with such problems... Plus in a military role if a "Unknown grabbed my barrel and a threat came out behind then that in known would most likely crawl away with a lap full of lead.

Anyhow, this is an old controversy that will never go away... but My suggestion is to look at what tier one Types teams are using in their DA type missions