Is "Muzzle Up" Viable?

[texasfrog]

Brother, Keep in mind that its ONLY used when moving during IA type drills and its not a muzzle strait up thing its more angled... And like you mention... to avoid flagging teammates while reloading on the run.

Other that that its all down... Its takes longer to employ the weapon in that mode and when your in a "time is life situation" well then I think enough said.

You want your weapon at a combat ready when you are entering a structure, PERIOD, I don't give a shit what anyone says.
Combat ready is weapon centerline of your body, trying to favor a 45 deg angle, making sure to not sweep your buddy. Non-shooting hand on your forward grip (if you have one), ready to puch out and strike if someone is in your immediate zone when you enter.

I have seen way too many guys get ****ed up or killed going in a house at the low ready and getting over powered by the enemy.

There is a time, place, and event on implementing the low ready, and I do it often, just not in the house.

[NCPatrolAR]

You absolutely must not know what you're talking about nor have you spent much time in a kill house. Do not be putting shit like that out, with that said...

A vast majority of the work I have done in training has been in a kill house or urban type scenario.
Think about this....
You're entering a primary entry point or just a room on target and you have your muzzle down, an unknown sees your muzzle pointing down and grabs the muzzle and pushes it down, with intent to take this fight to the ground, and who knows from there. You are now in a position where you have little to no power or distance between you and the unknown to react with your primary. Hadj gets the gun and kills you with your own heater.

Or this....

Same scenario but you have your weapon broken down (ready to strike at a combat high ready) when you pass through the threshhold and there's some stinky ass hadji there, you stand your ground and strike his ass in the chest because he's an unknown and you need to get him on the floor so you can finish your clearance. He is now on the floor trying to breath or about to kill over from your muzzle strike.
You do this instinctively because you don't know what his intent was, but you got him before he got you because of prepardiness.
You have 80% more power when you are striking from a high ready than if you were unprepared at the low ready.

There's a huge difference between the way we high ready and the pics in this thread, that's some keystone cop shit.
Don't get me wrong, there is a time, place, and event for low porting your weps.

One thing immediately jumps out to me about your post. You are automatically assuming the guy entering at a low ready is unprepared for a fight upon entry while the high ready guy is a super ninja ready to deal death and destruction.

And yes; there is a difference between a high ready (similar to Satterwhite Ready) and the norte/sabrina position shown in the pics.

[Jay Cunningham]

Brother, Keep in mind that its ONLY used when moving during IA type drills and its not a muzzle strait up thing its more angled... And like you mention... to avoid flagging teammates while reloading on the run.

Travis - thank you for your valuable insight.

If I could pick your brain again, I wanted to ask you about "workspace" and the long gun. In the same thread they were showing bringing the rifle (the discussion was centered around AK's) into your "workspace" but this was demonstrated to be the same region as a pistol, i.e. right in front of your face. I didn't have a warm fuzzy about this for several reasons, though I did concede that it allowed for a viable reload technique for an AK, but that it also had significant negatives as well.

Can you share your thoughts?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBafW...eature=related

http://www.suarezinternational.com/S...2%20Reload.AVI

[Blake]

When talking handguns, an instructor explained to me the muzzle down (lowish-ready) was better for weapons retention techniques. He basically said it you had it in the TJ hooker high-ready(weapon near your face) that if someone grabbed your hand/gun from there it is extremely difficult to force your arms down from that position. However, if you had the gun lower, in vicinity of waist line, abdominal area, you have more control, and can even possible get a shot off at the lower extremities of the asshole that is trying to take your gun. I don't know if that makes sense. I may have done a poor job of explaining it. I thought is was a logical explanation.

[SIMPLYDYNAMIC]

You want your weapon at a combat ready when you are entering a structure, PERIOD, I don't give a shit what anyone says.

First off thats an absolute mindset... and dosent fly in tactics period...

I have seen way too many guys get ****ed up or killed going in a house at the low ready and getting over powered by the enemy

I cant really say, I have only been on like a couple hundred or so Dynamic Assaults raids... and I have never seen anyone get ****ed up or killed from a low ready position...

[texasfrog]

Brother, Keep in mind that its ONLY used when moving during IA type drills and its not a muzzle strait up thing its more angled... And like you mention... to avoid flagging teammates while reloading on the run.

Other that that its all down... Its takes longer to employ the weapon in that mode and when your in a "time is life situation" well then I think enough said.



That's Dieter Philosophy... Which the teams took on and now have trashed... They have finally gotten smart and realized that the hand fighter can not influence the gunfighters methodologies. Last I checked if I entered a house and a Unknown grabbed my barrel he is no longer a Unknown... there are SOPs for that kind of thing in teams to deal with such problems... Plus in a military role if a "Unknown grabbed my barrel and a threat came out behind then that in known would most likely crawl away with a lap full of lead.

Anyhow, this is an old controversy that will never go away... but My suggestion is to look at what tier one Types teams are using in their DA type missions

Just so it's clear, I'm in the teams and I personally think the whole dieter thing is unpractical in most scenarios.
When I said said strike, I meant muzzle strike, not that gay offhand or fire hand shit.
I am talking about combat ready vs low ready in a structure, not the pyramid of dieter bullshit that they subject us to.
Yeah, unknown becomes a tango. Dude, you're not telling me shit I don't know. I've been doing this for a while, I'm not some punk airsofter ****wad.
If you want to see what were doing, you are more than welcome to come watch us during our assaults block. You will most likely change your mind after that.

[texasfrog]

I'm not trying to make this into a I've done 1 million assaults pissing contest or anything of the sort, I personally don't count the number of DA's or Ops I have been on, I think it's tacky.

I am putting out tactics that I have been formally trained on through my almost ten years of operating in the teams.
The last I checked, my boys in VA beach are still clearing structures at the combat ready.

As far as the absolute mindset and tactics, you are right, I shouldn't have put it that way, because I'm sure that there is a time, place, and event that it can and will happen.
Combat ready has been such a vital part of our training that it is second nature to a team guy.

[NCPatrolAR]

I am putting out tactics that I have been formally trained on through my almost ten years of operating in the teams.
The last I checked, my boys in VA beach are still clearing structures at the combat ready.

And you arent the only one clearing structures you know.

[SIMPLYDYNAMIC]

Just so it's clear, I'm in the teams and I personally think the whole dieter thing is unpractical in most scenarios.
When I said said strike, I meant muzzle strike, not that gay offhand or fire hand shit.
I am talking about combat ready vs low ready in a structure, not the pyramid of dieter bullshit that they subject us to.
Yeah, unknown becomes a tango. Dude, you're not telling me shit I don't know. I've been doing this for a while, I'm not some punk airsofter ****wad.
If you want to see what were doing, you are more than welcome to come watch us during our assaults block. You will most likely change your mind after that.

Easy Frogman.. we are discussing technique here not arguing whos "teams" are better than whos.

I assume you are not a Airsofter and I guess I have to inform you that I am not either...
I have work with the Teams for years man so I know exactly what you guys do especially during your assaulters block. and thanks for the invite what Team are you with I might just take you up on it if yor serious.

I think it comes down to a simple question...

If the Unknown hits you at the door what are you going to do.

plow through him and go to the ground... get the hell out of the way for the rest of your team... why get into a puching match?

the SOP normally is to deal with that imediatly and if all the team is doing their jobs then all is good...

If the Unknow dosent mean any harm then you can pretty much (in most of our cases with one hand throw their ass on the ground and move on...

[SIMPLYDYNAMIC]

I am putting out tactics that I have been formally trained on through my almost ten years of operating in the teams.

again bro not bashing you just educating... 10 years in the teams is great...And i automaticly take you in as a brother but keep an open mind, I was stuck in a training rut until I got out and starting working for other Agencies and realized that there are other ways and better ways out there then what we knew in the teams...