Shotgun v. Rifle for patrol

[msp21]

What weapons system do you believe to be better for LE patrol use. Both weapons systems run iron sights. Does it matter if you patrol highways, cities or back roads? Explain your rational and how the ballistics plays a roll.

[fourXfour]

Patrol Rifle works best for us. I work in a Suburban city. .223's accuracy and lack of over penetration is a huge benefit over the 12 gauge.

ETA: I won't get into terminal ballistics too much as both systems are capable of achieving the desired outcome. The AR has a definite edge in defeating body armor.

10 years ago I would have bet $1,000 that the 870 was more durable than a Colt 6721. Honestly we have never had a Colt out of service. We've had issues that were easily fixed. The 870's are starting to pile up. Mostly sights falling off and a few are having feeding issues. The reality of it is most of the armorers are passionate & knowledgable about the AR platform. Only one guy is trained on the 870's and is too busy to deal with it.

[BigLarge]

I actually just gave a class on this... the benefits of the AR over a shotgun are many. Reduced recoil means faster follow up shots, and the increased round count is a big selling point for me. Increased accuracy for the AR, especially if you're running buckshot in the shotgun. Remember the 1986 FBI shootout and the Hollywood shootout. Cops with shotguns and pistols get over powered by suspects with rifles.

[ack495]

What weapons system do you believe to be better for LE patrol use. Both weapons systems run iron sights. Does it matter if you patrol highways, cities or back roads? Explain your rational and how the ballistics plays a roll.

If it is a question of having to choose one or the other because you can only have one with you, then its an ar15 all day and night. Unless of course I lived in Alaska and had to content with bears. Then give me a 12ga with brenneke slugs.

The PD I work for we have the luxury of having both mounted up front with us so I can pick the right tool for the job given I have the time to access one of my long guns.

Now for a long time we used a 55gr ballistic tip ammo in our AR's. Luckily I was able to get them to switch to the new Winchester bonded 64gr ammo, RA556B. So now, if I have the choice, I'm going for the AR. Cant beat the accuracy and range of the AR.

Before that I was going for the shotgun with the slugs. I didn't trust the ballistic tip to do the job through barriers. We use Remington sluggers which is a foster type slug. I would rather have Federal #1 or #00 buckshot with flite control but I working on that one too.

For what its worth, L.E.A.D.S. consulting group which is LAPD SWAT members, was in my area training my regional SWAT team a couple years ago before I got on. They told the guys that they use a 12ga up front on point. Reason being is they have shot people with their.45's and .223's and seen them keep fighting sometimes after being shot. They never seen anyone keep fighting after being shot with 12ga #00 buckshot. They probably have a lot experience in that category so I believe them....

Despite that, I think the AR with an expanding, barrier blind round, is your best option. But your environment and expected ranges would dictate your decision and choice of ammo.

If I knew I was never going to shoot past 25 yards, I might have a hard time not picking a nice 14" shotgun stoked with Federal tactical #00 buck, but that's not a reality.

[LMT Shooter]

If the rifle looses this discussion, I'll be shocked, and not just because the name of the forum is M4Carbine.

Other than the perceived stopping power of a 12ga, what advantage does it have over a rifle? I can't think of 1.

[Chameleox]

Other than the perceived stopping power of a 12ga, what advantage does it have over a rifle? I can't think of 1.

12 gauge with slugs for large, dangerous animals, but this isn't a concern for many agencies. Slugs also do very well against vehicle doors, though properly selected .223 ammo will also do well here.

In an urban role (where I work), .223 hands down.

[sierra 223]

I prefer the AR, plenty of ammo and the ability to hit at distance.
We use Winchester 55 grain Ranger Ballistic Silvertip.

Not my first choice in ammo but we are stuck with it. Has not worked very well for us shooting at suspects in veh's.

I do like our 870's and would be just as comfortable with it if I knew for sure the distance wouldn't be to great, but you cant guarantee that.

We use Federal Flight Control 00 buck which I have a lot of confidence in.

Rifle just has all of the bases covered where sometimes shotgun doesn't.

[LMT Shooter]

Quote: Slugs also do very well against vehicle doors, though properly selected .223 ammo will also do well here.


I see your point, I should have just said "power," not "stopping power" to accurately convey what I meant

[El Cid]

Given the way the threat has evolved over time I have noticed a trend towards hi-cap weapons. A 4 or 5 shot weapon (even a 12 ga) is tough to swallow. For an entry or tac team as mentioned above that isn't such a big deal as your teammates are going to be stacked up behind you. But for a single patrol car... Give me a carbine every time.

The rifle also deals better with bad guys wearing armor. Also the precision advantage is more than just distance as you may only have a small piece of bad guy available to shoot even if it's down the street.

The real winner for me though is ease if mastery. Pretty much anyone can be good with a rifle. A shottie, however simple it may seem, takes lots of work to truly master. Topping off a tubular mag constantly is different than reloading with a box magazine (something cops are already familiar with from their pistols). Most cops aren't gun people and won't devote the time. Add in the difference in recoil and the rifle is almost a no brainer.

If the rifle is an AR then you're also leveraging the experience of new officers who are prior military. It's also my (unquantifiable) belief that we don't have near so many people growing up with shotguns as we did 20+ years ago.

A quality shotgun has its place - but few are going to be really efficient with it. If the fight doesn't end within the first few shots... I could see a shotgun being a disadvantage for most LEO's.

[MountainRaven]

If I were a peace officer, I would want both in my patrol vehicle. The shotgun is unquestioningly the more versatile of the two and therefore will always deserve a place in the patrol vehicle.

But for 99.9% of lethal force situations where one would have to reach for a long gun, I would probably reach for the carbine or rifle first.

The shotgun's usefulness is not limited to slugs (for crunching engines and grizzly bear bones). It is also useful for loading rubber buck (and other less lethal options) for hazing animals and rioters/looters/crowd control.

Buckshot would still have a place, of course, but it would be primarily for arming a second person in the patrol vehicle or for North Hollywood-style shootouts when you start to run low on ammo for the carbine/rifle.

Based on where I live, I would probably want to add a precision (semi or bolt) 308 and/or a 308 "battle rifle" (or AK in 7.62x39 or AR in 6.8 SPC or 300 BLK) to the stable, too. Based off of potential ranges of engagements and likelihood of having to defeat automotive steel and glass.