Quickest way to get an AR on safe during mag change?

[tb-av]

Ah, I was trying to actuate the safety when the gun was still right in front of me like when I drop the mag. I normally just use the pad of my thumb to put it on safe, not hooking it. Now the safety would be put on right as I am loading the fresh mag correct? I can see some use for this assuming there are no more threats visible and I am in the process of an e-reload.

If I am reading him correctly and to compare what it sounds like you normally do..

His way... As weapon is tilted up to 45d and trapped the support hand begins it move towards magazine... At Same Time.... index finger and thumb are manipulating release/safety respectively. This means that when support hand reaches the region of the magazine it -should- be gone and the hand simply continues unobstructed to retrieve new mag. Then reinsert. At this point, I assume you are making a decision with eyes, ears, whatever, as to what your thumb is going to do with the safety and can readily do so because your support hand has still not gotten back in place yet. It still is pressing bolt catch and moving towards fore grip. I don;t see how how those actions can be reduced except by the school of thought to simply not do some of them.... Even then.... your right hand thumb being inactive,,, still doesn't gain you any speed, it is simply waiting for the other items to fall in place...

You way... Bang... you press release. Your support hand still has to retrieve a mag and perhaps clear a stuck one. So that action is pretty much equal... But it seems like you are saying your actions are simply re-ordered... so perhaps the same overall speed.

To me the differences seem like playing a chord on a piano or guitar. You move multiple fingers to multiple places at the same time and apply them. Over time, it's second nature. Once it's learned it never seems to go away and rarely requires any real brain power.

But you are right, if your weapon is horizontal and you intend to have your support hand doing something at the same time, then holding the gun steady, releasing mag and applying safety all at once is pretty damn cumbersome. In fact, I can't even do it.

That's the way I am reading it anyway and it seems very smooth and logical ( the right or wrong debate aside ).. The technique.

[TactTeam]

Thats right. My Way is moving multiple hands and fingers at the same time.

Typically, as soon I hear click or know it locked back, it has become second nature to the point that as soon as my support hand leaves the grip I am already hitting the safety and mag release. By the time I am slightly off parallel the mag has dropped. If you are too quick and hit 45ish before mag release, it will not fall out.

Again, just my way that works for me.

[ST911]

Performance of multiple tasks can occupy the same interval of time when they are complementary in nature, as illustrated.

Most will simply sequence the tasks and aggregate their time costs, which skews results and decision making.

[Surf]

A little side note to this discussion that has a relationship to the concept.....I always hear on forums, etc, that having only one type of weapon for each platform is a bonus, ala "fear the man with only one gun." Too many weapon types will result in catastrophic failure of the individuals performance under stress and will get you killed. You can't hit a damn slide stop to release a slide under stress. You can't learn to consistently use a slide stop then fluidly transition to racking the slide when using a different pistol. Also the normal response of minimize, economize or standardize movements or manipulations that easily translate from one weapon to another. Learn and use one draw across the board, one type of trigger manipulation, learn one weapon, etc, etc, etc....

I have always preached pretty much the opposite of the above, in that if you have the time, resources and skill to do more then have at it as it is a plus.....Arguments with those who espouse the "Hicks Law" to the fullest and ignoring the side benefit of having more options can be a huge bonus to the highly trained and skilled individual. Well we seem to have a manipulation here that goes against a "commonality theme" and exists or more easily usable on this platform and not on others. It is having the user do many small things under what is obviously going to be a lethal situation, so I would imagine the stress levels are through the roof. Now if we factor in "Hicks" with this manipulation we are still slowing ourselves down to a certain degree, skill level dependent. Now I am not necessarily in that camp of fine motor skills, less things to think about, less manipulations, standardization, etc, etc, but this seems to go against that widely common theme in regards to the "martial firearms skills" widely preached on forums, even this forum and the general training world.

I am not singling out any one individual in this thread or training group, rather I am just generalizing with a broad stroke of the brush and I understand that those posting here in this thread might be of a higher skill level then most shooters AND I am not going to preach either way on this technique, but I just find it a bit interesting to see how this particular technique, despite being "an enabler and not a disabler" pretty much contradicts the general attitude of standardization. [Man that was a long run on] Is it because of the pedigree of the source itself? If so I know of many more who are actively or were formerly putting "boot to ass" so to speak, at the highest levels, who do not use or teach this. Maybe it is just too new that it is still working its way around? Or perhaps that they don't find the value in it?

I guess my stance is if you have the time, skill and resources to work on the small things, go for it. But the individual must at the end of the day be realistic about their own performance utilizing that technique and weigh the pro's vs. cons of any technique in how it applies to them and their circumstances. In other words how well do I perform the skill and is the one in a million slow bolt, shoot my partner in the ass, worth the extra fraction of a second that it takes to get a gun up and running to save my skin. Or am I good enough to avoid attempting to safe the weapon several times, before realizing the trigger won't go on safe before I attempt to fix my situation. Once the technique is learned we should attempt to validate that technique in which force on force being a better way of validation as opposed to relying only on flat range performance.

Oh btw, I dig the "enabler not disabler" saying, but only when it comes out of Pat Macs mouth and not some other trainer du jour.

[jjw]

[QUOTE=C4IGrant;1797715]This is interesting to me. I have talked to a lot of other Delta Guys and they do not teach to do this. The question I have is, the gun is EMPTY so why put the safety on?

If we take this logic to say a handgun like the 1911, you cannot put it on safe when doing a mag change.

what he said. been doing this off/on for over 40 yrs in several ugly places. never ever put the safety on. why?
seems like 2 xtra minipulations to get back into the fight. could be 1 tooo many.

jjw

[Arctic1]

I always hear on forums, etc, that having only one type of weapon for each platform is a bonus, ala "fear the man with only one gun." Too many weapon types will result in catastrophic failure of the individuals performance under stress and will get you killed. You can't hit a damn slide stop to release a slide under stress. You can't learn to consistently use a slide stop then fluidly transition to racking the slide when using a different pistol. Also the normal response of minimize, economize or standardize movements or manipulations that easily translate from one weapon to another. Learn and use one draw across the board, one type of trigger manipulation, learn one weapon, etc, etc, etc....

I have always preached pretty much the opposite of the above, in that if you have the time, resources and skill to do more then have at it as it is a plus.....

I have to agree with this.

During my time in the Army I received training on at least 9 weapons (small arms), from pistol to SMG/PDW, to rifle/carbine and machine guns. Some things were the same/similar, others completely different.

I have never had any issues mixing up controls or forgetting what to do, be it weapon manipulation (safety, loading/unloading, malfunction clearance, barrel changes), shooting, zeroing, disassembly/assembly and so forth.