Shotguns not for COMBAT use

[Oscar 319]

All of the above are training issues. Properly trained users tend not to do stupid things like load shells backwards; much like properly trained users don't often try to load M16 magazines or linked belts or M203 grenades backwards.



Probably the same result as if they would have had a few 1-oz. slugs.

+1 to that. You are way more likely to insert a M16 mag backwords under pressure than mistake the tactile sensation of the plasic hull/brass rim. My 11 year old would not make that mistake, dark or light. Mistaking a slug for buck....under fire, who cares. Load that sum' bitchin' boom stick and make mama proud!

As for the No Hollywood incident...accurate head shots would have been difficult but possible...however, one of those 1oz pumpkin balls to thier torso armor I guarantee would have at the very least knocked the wind out of them if not broke some ribs.

And yes, 1 "patrol rifle" with a well trained operator could have put a much quicker end to the situation.

[sff70]

If you have innocents in close proximity (active shooter, hostage taker), it matters a LOT if you use slug or buck.

Mistaking buck for slug can have very bad consequences in those conditions.

Fumbling shells, loading them backwards, not loading them past the shell stops ALL happen when you put stress on shooters, even properly trained ones.

All these problems become more common in low light conditions.

They become even more common when shooters wear gloves.

A simple magpul prevents the insertion of an inverted magazine. Putting a mag in backwards is very uncommon.

Compare to the juggling and dropping that occurs when loading shotgun rounds.

Another thing to consider, with a rifle you have 28 opportunities before you have to reload. How many do you have with a shotgun?

A real life example, at VA Tech, one of the shotgun armed officers lost track of how his shotgun was loaded. He had needed to engage the bad gun, he would have had no idea what was in the chamber.

As the N. Hollywood bank robbers, while blunt trauma from slugs would have had an "impact" so to speak, they wouldn't have penetrated that head to toe kevlar, and cause the internal damage that a 5.56mm bullet would.

As a reminder, Platt's rifle rounds penetrated armor worn by the agents.

As to handguns, they are anemic. We carry them because they are convenient, not because they are effective. If you knew you were going to a fight, you'd take a long gun and employ it as your primary weapon.

[Beemer]

Nam vet..11B...shotgun worked very well thank-you....Beemer

[lowspeed4u]

As already stated the USMC has tried 2 times and got shut down for making a shotgun standard, Marine wide. Currently it is being worked again and pushed again. In my own opinion the shotgun is a great breaching tool, I have carried it in other situtions but always had my M4, and most of the time my pistol. As a last resort when M4 and pistol are dry I would switch to the Shotty just to stay with the team and keep pushing.

As already stated if you are going to be a die hard shotgun fan and want to take it to "combat" hopefully your talking about CQB first, and then hopefully you will get some type of training with it.

Some one told me once the trick with the shotgun is to manupliate it fast, thats whats going to save your life. It's just like the 1911 great weapon I own one or two, but in a combat sitution 7-9 rounds just isnt enough, you are always doing speed reloads.

Just what I think on the matter, basised of having used it one or two times :-)

[Slater]

Well, Hell, I just watched the umpteenth re-run of "Commando" and Arnie defeated a small army at the end while using a shotun (coundn't tell what type). I also learned that, when hit by a shotgun blast, a person will take two steps backwards and hurl themselves out of a window

[Gutshot John]

I seem to recall something called a "little pig" or SB shottie that could be slung under an M4 a la M203 for breaching.

[lowspeed4u]

yes, you are right there is a under barrel shotgun it's the M26 MASS, it's been in development by the army for awhile now. Never used one but looks like a good idea but sometimes what looks to be good really isn't; it has the CDI (chicks dig it) factor though so it has to be good :-).

[LouDiamond]

yes, you are right there is a under barrel shotgun it's the M26 MASS, it's been in development by the army for awhile now. Never used one but looks like a good idea but sometimes what looks to be good really isn't; it has the CDI (chicks dig it) factor though so it has to be good :-).

Quite simply put, it is a piece of shit developed by those who have no idea what is needed or how it's typically employed by those who do use shotguns in combat. I am not exaggerating when I say that it is made by 2 guys in a garage. If by some miracle this piece of shit does make it into the inventory tax payers should contact their congressman and complain.

[sff70]

Reference a post above, things that make you go hmmmmm?

Shotgun holds about 6 rounds, on average.

Carbine holds about 28 rounds (30 if using a PMAG).

More ammo on tap is a very good thing, no? It's good if you don't have to reload in the first place.

[Al U. 5811]

WOW!!!!

Let us take on the most misunderstood weapon in the U.S. small arms arsenal, the combat shotgun. I did a tour in Iraq and fielded the 1014. While not a fan of that particular weapon, I am an 870 fan, well a pump fan to be specific. I found the weapon to have many uses. I was the OPs Chief for a large ECP and did VCP work as well. My Marines loved the fact that they could carry something with the capability to stop a small vehicle and not have to totally rely on a cover weapon to initialy engage a rolling threat. To me that is a force multiplier. Not to mention the versitility as a CQB weapon as well. I look at it as another supplimental tool in the toolbox. My Marines received the proper training as well. Several of them got to attend the YFA course taught by Mr. Louis Awerbuck, which I myself, got to AI for 3 weeks under Lou at Camp Pendleton. Along with myself and a couple others attending 260 Shotgun at Gunsite taught by Larry Landers and Kirk Scarborough, thanks to the generousity of LTCol. "Freddy" Blish and Group 37 UTF. I had the privilege of then passing this knowledge on to well over 500 Marines during predeployment training.

It boils down to TTP's. As with any weapon system, there is a time and place. I don't feel as though anyone should condemn a peice of gear due to a personal lack of knowledge or exposure to the pro's and con's of said equipment. Let the folks who carry it make that choice. YMMV.