Shotguns not for COMBAT use

[Tim]

The thing to remember about using any weapon in the military is that with very few exceptions it will be used as part of a larger team, squad, platoon, company - not carried as the lone weapon on a mission. So the same things could be said for the SMAW, mortars, M40, AC-130, artillery and yes even the M4. Are they the ideal choice for every situation? No. But do they have their place? Of course. So does the shotgun. The idea of combined arms brings together a variety of tools and allows the commander to use the best tool for the job at the moment it is needed. So the shotgun has a place in this bigger picture.

Like many have said, those who carry a shotgun need specialized training and all in the unit need to be familiar with its operation. This is the biggest reason I'm sold on the 870 - it is simple and reliable. As long as you keep it fed and don't short stroke it, it will go bang.

The LEO is a different scenario as he may be a lone responder and should have both a carbine and shotgun to reach for as he exits his cruiser.

[sff70]

A skilled person can do very well with a shotgun. That said, rifles have many advantages over shotguns.

For one thing, they are much easier for the average LEO to shoot well.

Of course, over the past 20 yrs, LE has rediscovered the rifle, and come to recognize the advantages of rifles over shotguns.

A LEO responding to a crisis point can carry only 1 long gun. It had best be the one that can best handle a wide range of situations, especially active shooters, a problem which increases more with every year.

Don't know about you, but I would prefer that LEOs responding to an active shooter at my kid's school be armed with rifles, not shotguns.

[Failure2Stop]

Al- while I appreciate where you are coming from (though I happen to disagree with most of your opinions), there is one serious issue you brought up.

My Marines loved the fact that they could carry something with the capability to stop a small vehicle and not have to totally rely on a cover weapon to initialy engage a rolling threat.

It is impossible for a shotgun to stop a vehicle moving over about 10 mph within it's 100m effective range. This is brought up quite frequently, and frankly is urban myth. The same goes for .50 BMG.

Even if the slug/bullet breaks the engine block (which is very unlikely with a 12ga slug), there is more than enough momentum for them vehicle to continue moving for quite some distance. The same applies to bullets applied to tires and even the driver's CNS.

I have been witness and participant to several vehicle shoots. None wound up with a quick stop unless the driver applied the brake.

[HolyRoller]

A LEO responding to a crisis point can carry only 1 long gun.

mmmmmm ... watch me.

Don't know about you, but I would prefer that LEOs responding to an active shooter at my kid's school be armed with rifles, not shotguns.

At our last active shooter training, would you believe the instructor told us to just stick with pistols. Looking waaay down the hallways and waaay up to the mezzanine of the high school we were training in, I might have privately decided to sneak along an AR if the balloon ever really went up, but said nothing, forgiveness being easier to obtain than permission. Interestingly, the same instructor then played the bad guy--and HE had an AR. With Aimpoint.

At least I HAD a rifle at that department. Now I have to move to a department where rifles aren't allowed at all. "Those things'll shoot all the way across the lake!"

[RWK]

A skilled person can do very well with a shotgun. That said, rifles have many advantages over shotguns.

A LEO responding to a crisis point can carry only 1 long gun. It had best be the one that can best handle a wide range of situations, especially active shooters, a problem which increases more with every year.

Don't know about you, but I would prefer that LEOs responding to an active shooter at my kid's school be armed with rifles, not shotguns.

You'll get no argument from me on any of these points. But, this is way off track from the original poster's point. He was referring strictly to combat usage and stating that the shotgun could serve no useful purpose.

For one thing, they are much easier for the average LEO to shoot well.

Doesn't the use of "average LEO" and "shoot well" in the same sentence qualify as an oxymoron?

[Al U. 5811]

I guess by stop I meant mechanically, as in engine no longer under normal operation. This isn't the movies or a video game. To even get the idea out of what I wrote is ****ing retarded. Obviously bringing any moving object to a physical stop would take a physical barrier with a weight displacement greater that the weight of the object and speed of it's travel. Have you ever seen, in person, what an M2 will do to a vehicle that runs your VCP? The shotgun, even with all it's suppossed limitations, is still my first choice in the scenario I described.

[Failure2Stop]

I guess by stop I meant mechanically, as in engine no longer under normal operation. This isn't the movies or a video game. To even get the idea out of what I wrote is ****ing retarded. Obviously bringing any moving object to a physical stop would take a physical barrier with a weight displacement greater that the weight of the object and speed of it's travel. Have you ever seen, in person, what an M2 will do to a vehicle that runs your VCP? The shotgun, even with all it's suppossed limitations, is still my first choice in the scenario I described.

Chill hombre, you aren't the only guy on this forum to have landed in the sandbox. I've seen the elephant, more than once. I have spent more than a little time there and know of what I speak, though combat experience is irrelevant to the topic- there is pleanty of data from the LE side here at home.

A shot from a 12ga at 100 yards will not crack the engine block. I have seen what all kinds of things do to a vehicle that is in motion, from 5.56 to 25mm. If an HE 25mm round won't stop a moving vehicle within 100 yards, I don't know what will.

But at a VCP the issue isn't what the driver or the passenger is going to do, it's the VBIED you are worried about, right? All of these VBIEDs have a secondary initiator in case the driver freaks or is unable to "allah snackbar" himself. The point is that even if you do destroy the engine block (which the .50+ category do, depending on ammo) the vehicle will still be moving with sufficient speed to deliver the payload, pretty much making weapon selection moot.

If your simply felt better because you and your Marines believed that you could stop a car, fine. But it doesn't mean that you can.

But you are welcome to your opinion.

[m24shooter]

I took the "stop" comment the same way F2S did.
And let's try to keep it civil. This isn't TOS.

[Buck]

Just a reminder to all...

This is a place for the rational discussion of first hand experiences and knowledge… Please be respectful of other members opinions even if you do not agree with their beliefs…

B

[Buck]

Doesn't the use of "average LEO" and "shoot well" in the same sentence qualify as an oxymoron?

I'll be your Huckelbarry...