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Thread: Tons of bolt-over-base malfunctions...help

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinister View Post
    The rifle left the factory fully functional and tuned for use with a 12.5 barrel, and you swapped in a 10.5 barrel or 10.5 complete upper on to the lower tuned for a different gas impulse and cycle, correct?
    Noveske assembled the lower.
    Noveske assembled the upper.

    Both of them 100% and completely (aside from the H, H2, and H3 buffers tried in the lower to get it to run, and aside from changing muzzle-device mounting methods on the upper to comply with Surefire's recommended mounting procedure).

    Noveske recommends the H2 buffer and uses it in all of their SBR builds, I believe, in conjunction with the mil-spec spring. I tried the H and H2 and the Mil-Spec spring.

    Finally I resorted to the H3 and Sprinco blue spring as it masks the geometry issue and the gun will run well enough to plink/shoot drills with.

    I did not shoot the 12.5" upper, so I cannot comment on whether or not it left "fully functional". I know my 14.5" gun using the same type of VIS/MUR upper was not fully functional, it did the same thing, but only on reloads, and it did it so rarely that I never put 2 and 2 together until this SBR began doing it often. Now the issues I had with my other Noveske make more sense. It was 100% factory as a unit. Same type of jams. Round would bind on its way into the chamber. But only using the bolt-release. When actually shooting, it would cycle. This SBR has issues doing both. Hoping I fixed it/band-aided it.
    Last edited by WS6; 11-29-13 at 03:33.

  2. #42
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    I just checked the problem upper on the known good lower that it jammed on with the H2/Milspec spring.
    It seems to fit normally. The bolt-catch engages the bolt to the same depth as it does with the known good upper on this known good lower.

    Now I am out of ideas, considering that it jammed on this lower, too, and the dimensional problem that I THOUGHT existed with the upper, is in-fact something funky with that Noveske lower. Yet it also jammed on a good, proven lower.

    The H3 and Blue spring should not be required for a clean rifle to chamber a round when the bolt-release is used. That's flat-out bullshit. The M4 platform is not that mechanically "harsh" in its function, in my experience, that rounds must be hammered out of the mag and into the chamber.
    (and it only does it sometimes, not all the time.)

    There is something else going on, here, and I'm just masking it with an oversprung, overbuffered compensation.

    I did speak with Surefire, and when they tested the upper, they had no function issues on their lowers. They ran it on their MK18 lower, IIRC.

    At my wits end on this thing. Here are the facts so far:

    -I only shoot the rifle suppressed, using a Surefire 556-212
    -Factory built Noveske lower (FFL Gen 2)
    -Factory built Noveske upper (VLTOR MUR/VIS Monolithic, 10.5" barrel)
    -Happens with PMC XTAC M193
    -Ejection is to the 1-2 O'clock and very brisk
    -Sometimes happens when reloading and using the bolt-release.
    -Happens using another lower which has never had issues on another upper
    -H2 buffer, mil-spec spring (5-800 rounds old)
    -Sometimes there are "near misses", when using the bolt release on a reload, I can feel it "release...hit...pause...chamber".
    -It has done this with newish PMAG's which have been proven in other guns
    -It has done this with Lancer L5 AWM which have been proven in other guns
    -It was generously lubed with Froglube the first time I had the issues, and with FIREClean the second. Correct procedures.
    -I does it free-standing as well as when resting the mag on the bench.
    -I tried it with an H3 and Sprinco Blue spring. Ejection is still to the 2-230, but it appears that this combo overpowers the method of failure.
    -Always locks back on empty

    Yeah, it ran a mag or two over-buffered and over-sprung, but I want to know the real issue.

    Any other ideas, anyone? I might buy over or under-gassed if it didn't also jam when I used the bolt-release. So the gas-system is out of the picture as the problem, IMO
    Last edited by WS6; 12-03-13 at 03:24.

  3. #43
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    Contact Noveske and TELL THEM to look at it. Or find someone competent and ask them to examine it. This thing should probably be torn apart and rechecked. I would be interested to know if the VIS is messed up or if you put that barrel into another upper if it would exhibit the same issue. I would be looking at the gas port, extractor, etc... every single component.

    BTW- What serial number is this lower? As I recall there are a series of lowers that will not function correctly with PMAG's. Although you stated you used some Lancers also. Does this happen with other ammo? Federal M855, M193, etc...

    Did you ask your dealer to put the guns back in their original configuration and then shoot them and see if his 12.5" upper malfunctions with this lower or if your upper will run on his lower?

    Quote Originally Posted by WS6 View Post
    I just checked the problem upper on the known good lower that it jammed on with the H2/Milspec spring.
    It seems to fit normally. The bolt-catch engages the bolt to the same depth as it does with the known good upper on this known good lower.

    Now I am out of ideas, considering that it jammed on this lower, too, and the dimensional problem that I THOUGHT existed with the upper, is in-fact something funky with that Noveske lower. Yet it also jammed on a good, proven upper.

    The H3 and Blue spring should not be required for a clean SBR to function with a lower backpressure can like a Surefire. There is something else going on, here, and I'm just masking it with an oversprung, overbuffered compensation.

    I did speak with Surefire, and when they tested the upper, they had no function issues on their lowers. They ran it on their MK18 lower, IIRC.

    At my wits end on this thing. Here are the facts so far:

    -I only shoot the rifle suppressed, using a Surefire 556-212
    -Factory built Noveske lower (FFL Gen 2)
    -Factory built Noveske upper (VLTOR MUR/VIS Monolithic, 10.5" barrel)
    -Happens with PMC XTAC M193
    -Ejection is to the 1-2 O'clock and very brisk
    -Sometimes happens when reloading and using the bolt-release.
    -Happens using another lower which has never had issues on another upper
    -H2 buffer, mil-spec spring (5-800 rounds old)
    -Sometimes there are "near misses", when using the bolt release on a reload, I can feel it "release...hit...pause...chamber".
    -It has done this with newish PMAG's which have been proven in other guns
    -It has done this with Lancer L5 AWM which have been proven in other guns
    -It was generously lubed with Froglube the first time I had the issues, and with FIREClean the second. Correct procedures.
    -I does it free-standing as well as when resting the mag on the bench.
    -I tried it with an H3 and Sprinco Blue spring. Ejection is still to the 2-230, but it appears that this combo overpowers the method of failure.
    -Always locks back on empty

    Yeah, it ran a mag or two over-buffered and over-sprung, but I want to know the real issue.

    Any other ideas, anyone? I might buy over or under-gassed if it didn't also jam when I used the bolt-release. So the gas-system is out of the picture as the problem, IMO



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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    Contact Noveske and TELL THEM to look at it. Or find someone competent and ask them to examine it. This thing should probably be torn apart and rechecked. I would be interested to know if the VIS is messed up or if you put that barrel into another upper if it would exhibit the same issue. I would be looking at the gas port, extractor, etc... every single component.
    I can't see the gas port or extractor or barrel being the issue. They aren't involved in the use of the bolt-release. It also did this on a known good lower, so that removes the Noveske lower from the equation.
    I do not feel comfortable sending Noveske this rifle/suppressor/upper.


    BTW- What serial number is this lower? As I recall there are a series of lowers that will not function correctly with PMAG's. Although you stated you used some Lancers also. Does this happen with other ammo? Federal M855, M193, etc...
    I have only shot it extensively with the XTAC. Serial is 3677, but the issue was with Gen 3 PMAG's. I'm using a Gen 2. I did SHOVE a Gen 3 in there and it promptly jammed the first time I tried it, but I didn't expect it to work, either, being as the over-insertion stop doesn't fit the lower.

    Did you ask your dealer to put the guns back in their original configuration and then shoot them and see if his 12.5" upper malfunctions with this lower or if your upper will run on his lower?
    I did not, but the upper also failed on a known good mil-spec lower. It also ran just fine on Surefire's MK18 lower. I bet my dealer and that 12.5" upper parted ways nearly a year ago. I have just not played with the thing extensively until now. I shot it some when I first got it, and it seemed okay. Like I said, sometimes it's butter, sometimes it's not. Nothing changed from when I got it, to now, operationally. (Same bolt, buffer, extractor, BCG, suppressor, you name it)

    It is definitely mechanical/dimensional somehow because it does this when I use the bolt-release on a reload sometimes, as well as live-fire. The jam I pictured was a life-fire jam, but it looks identical to when I use the bolt release and it does it. Other times, it strips the rounds slick as butter when I use the bolt release. I have eyeballed and mushed on the PMAG's I used for my test, and can't find any cracks or anything like that in them.

    I have isolated the issue to the upper, because it has failed on a known good lower, now, which is mil-spec and not billet/custom forged, etc.

    At least that's a start.

    I'm getting frustrated because I cannot figure out what causes a jam when you release the bolt with the bolt-release. Everything LOOKS in place:

    -bolt-release is not hitting the carrier.
    -Was a newish Mil-spec spring and H2 buffer
    -BCG is sliding freely in the upper, and well lubed.
    -Gas-tube is not hitting the gas-key
    -Multiple mags have caused this.

    Here is a round that "chambered sluggishly", giving me the 1-2 impulse as it went home. This was using the bolt-release, it was the first round on a fully-loaded PMAG. Multiple attempts to repeat the situation did not show that it was consistently repeatable in nature. I am stumped. I put the H2 buffer and newish mil-spec spring back in for this. It should not do this regardless of the buffer or spring.

    Last edited by WS6; 12-03-13 at 04:44.

  5. #45
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    Well assuming that is all correct, you should still send the entire weapon to them minus the suppressor. You may be able to convince them that you have isolated the issue down the upper (and then ARTICULATE how you came to that decision).

    What else do you want? If you're not willing to send it back to Noveske then what else can we do? You don't really have options. You either send it to them or you send it to someone that will dissect it. If you are willing to do that then we may as well close this down.

    Quote Originally Posted by WS6 View Post
    I did not, but the upper also failed on a known good mil-spec lower. It also ran just fine on Surefire's MK18 lower. I bet my dealer and that 12.5" upper parted ways nearly a year ago. I have just not played with the thing extensively until now. I shot it some when I first got it, and it seemed okay. Like I said, sometimes it's butter, sometimes it's not. Nothing changed from when I got it, to now, operationally. (Same bolt, buffer, extractor, BCG, suppressor, you name it)

    It is definitely mechanical/dimensional somehow because it does this when I use the bolt-release on a reload sometimes, as well as live-fire. The jam I pictured was a life-fire jam, but it looks identical to when I use the bolt release and it does it. Other times, it strips the rounds slick as butter when I use the bolt release. I have eyeballed and mushed on the PMAG's I used for my test, and can't find any cracks or anything like that in them.

    I have isolated the issue to the upper, because it has failed on a known good lower, now, which is mil-spec and not billet/custom forged, etc.

    At least that's a start.



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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    Well assuming that is all correct, you should still send the entire weapon to them minus the suppressor. You may be able to convince them that you have isolated the issue down the upper (and then ARTICULATE how you came to that decision).

    What else do you want? If you're not willing to send it back to Noveske then what else can we do? You don't really have options. You either send it to them or you send it to someone that will dissect it. If you are willing to do that then we may as well close this down.
    I'll call them in the morning.

    Since the upper is complete, and they made it, and it did not come with any rifle, yet has malfunctioned on both their FFL lower, and another lower, I feel that they will likely only require the upper, although I'll send them the lower, too, if they want, it's easier to ship a non-firearm, and the lower is unrelated to the upper except by name, and is not the source of malfunction, apparently.
    Last edited by WS6; 12-03-13 at 04:59.

  7. #47
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    WS6:

    Please reach out to me if you are unable to get ahold of them. They should get back with you on this BUT should you not reach someone just email me.

    Jansen@Noveske.com

    and I will make sure something gets looked at.

    Sound good?
    John Noveske Changed My Life.

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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold View Post
    WS6:

    Please reach out to me if you are unable to get ahold of them. They should get back with you on this BUT should you not reach someone just email me.

    Jansen@Noveske.com

    and I will make sure something gets looked at.

    Sound good?
    I called and spoke with a "Meagan"*sp and e-mailed pictures to a "Chris". I have not heard back, yet, as Christ was in a meeting.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold View Post
    WS6:

    Please reach out to me if you are unable to get ahold of them. They should get back with you on this BUT should you not reach someone just email me.

    Jansen@Noveske.com

    and I will make sure something gets looked at.

    Sound good?
    Thanks for taking the time to reach out to me about this, as well as the lower discussed previously in another thread.

    Iraqgunz: I would appreciate it if you allow this thread to stay open. I would like to be able to post up resolution, if appropriate. I have had some very negative experiences, and I have been very vocal about them. It this gets turned around into a positive, I do not feel like it would be right to ignore that, and I want to be as vocal about the good as I have been the negative. I try to give everyone an even hand-shake, and expect the same. Also, in no-way was I told to stop being negative, or were my issues belittled in any way. This is just how I choose to conduct myself---if I slam someone for not doing what I feel is right, I am going to also uplift someone for handling an issue well. I'm pretty vocal, but it cuts both ways, and I hope that this thread can end on a positive note.

    Thanks all for the advise/thoughts, but this is all I have right now. Hoping to post up some resolutions as they unfold.

  10. #50
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    So, I began googling this issue. Apparently, it's pretty common.
    I came up with this video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jevZBNUbg1o

    So, I went to look at the feed ramps in my Noveske (lots of FTF), and my Daniel Defense (Never an FTF.)

    Here is what I found in the Noveske:


    Then I looked at the Daniel Defense:


    Then I looked at the markings on the round, compared to where the man drew the picture on YouTube, for one of the rounds that I had snag up on me in the Noveske:



    I believe this to be the issue. Depending on how bad the teeth dig in, is how bad the rifle functions. The more violent the action cycles, the harder that round hits those teeth, the more they dig. This explains why with the H buffer I had less issues than the H2 buffer. It explains why the jam is erratic. It fits.

    That said, I am still confident that Cold will make good on his offer to do his best to get my lower fixed so that it's in-spec, if indeed it is out of spec as Daniel Defense reported to me. Also, I am sure that if this barrel extension is the issue, something will be done about it. If it's not too much to hope for, the 8MOA POI shift will also be addressed which causes me to have to nearly bottom out the FSP to zero irons with the can on. Just updating the thread with what I had found so far.
    Last edited by WS6; 12-07-13 at 12:50.

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