What do you make of this? (M&P accuracy related)

[ASH556]

Purpose/Theory:

As a civilian, it is my belief that I should be most proficient with the weapon I carry daily - a pistol. If I need to use it to defend myself or others, it will likely be in a public place and thus, due to the high probability of collateral damage, a high degree of accuracy is important to me. I don't much buy into the whole "belly gun" or 7 ft concept. Sure, that's a possible scenario, but so is a longer shot (and all of these "possibilities" are low-probability because I generally don't go into bad areas and have enough situational awareness to avoid getting into bad situations).

Anyway, all of that to give a background or end purpose for what follows:

As I've posted here before, I have a pair of Smith M&P 9's. One stays at home with a Surefire X300/DG switch, Crimson Trace Grips, and an AAC EVO-9. It is the "house" gun and is also the one my wife chose for "hers" and after shooting several different pistols, shotguns, and carbines, is the one she now has the most training with. It is a plenty accurate pistol and can produce 3" 10-shot groups at 25 yds.


Untitled by ASH556, on Flickr

The other M&P is my daily carry gun. It wears Trijicon HD sights, a Surefire X300, and has been stippled. I really love everything about the pistol except its accuracy. I sent the barrel, slide, and block (they were on another frame at the time) back to Smith for poor accuracy once already. When it came back with a new barrel, it did shoot better (in the 3"-4" range). Then, I swapped everything over to this frame and accuracy went to hell. As you'll see in the pics below, we're talking about an average of 6" groups from the bench. What makes it even more frustrating is that I can regularly produce the same size groups standing free hand as off the bench, which means I can out-shoot the pistol, right? I've researched aftermarket barrel options and they are not inexpensive, and results are not really conclusive either that they help that much. So, the question is, do I send the pistol back to Smith again and hope they hit on some magic, dump the pistol and get into another carry platform, or be okay with that accuracy (really, I'm not).

I began the range session (25yds indoor) with 10 rounds of Speer 124gr Gold Dots from my carry magazine, seated, and supported. Another thing I wanted to determine was the POA/POI relationship with the HD sights and different ammo. Hence, the "cross" to aim at. For all groups, the center of the cross was the POA.


124 GDHP by ASH556, on Flickr

Next, I fired 10 rounds of Federal HST 147gr, note both the windage and elevation shift. You'll see the group move back down and right with lighter loads:


147 HST by ASH556, on Flickr

Then, 10 rounds of Federal American Eagle 147gr:


147 FAE by ASH556, on Flickr

And 10 rounds of S&B 115gr (note the group is back down and to the right again)


115 S&B by ASH556, on Flickr

I then put up a clean B16 target and with the same methodology I fired a 10-shot supported group using Aguila 124gr FMJ:


124 AGUILA by ASH556, on Flickr

Seeing these results and knowing that I had previously shot similar-sized groups standing, free-hand at 25 yds, I decided to try my luck and shot this, again with the Aguila 124gr:


124 AGUILA FREE by ASH556, on Flickr

And these are past groups fired from the same pistol setup, 25 yds standing free-hand with Magtech 124gr FMJ:


9mm 25yd offhand pre-adjust by ASH556, on Flickr

9mm 25yd offhand post-adjust by ASH556, on Flickr

9mm 25yd offhand 5-shot by ASH556, on Flickr

So, what do you make of that? Crappy pistol? Send it back or sell and replace?

I also want to take a pistol class this year, but it seems foolish to spend money for good instruction knowing on the front end that my skill level already supersedes what the pistol is capable of.

Thanks for you input!

[Cmm46]

I would say send the entire gun back one more time along with the pics you've posted here. If it comes back and its still off then try a new gun. If it comes back and its better but not where you'd like I would try an after market barrel. I've read stuff in the past that the m&ps stock barrel isn't that great. I have one in .40 but I haven't analyzed my shots like this to really know for myself. Good luck.

[samuse]

Typical of a POS M&P.

I've played with a few of 'em and I fail to see the attraction.

[Apricotshot]

Same exact thing my 2011 VTAC M&P9 did for me. Unloaded it to someone who I told about the issue and he said, "No big deal. I don't shoot past 15yds anyway." Since 40 is stupid and 45 costs too much and is too big for my hands. I have written off the M&P as being a viable choice for me.

[Darkwood1]

To the OP,

I think there are a lot of factors that decide how accurately one can shoot a pistol. The inherent accuracy of the pistol itself is only one, and the one I see blamed the most.

I've heard of some accuracy issues with early M&P's but have not witnessed this myself. Most folks (and I don't mean you) just can't shoot that well and blame it on the gun. Some days we can shoot the same gun and ammo combination very well and on another day, not as well. (The true test might be to use a Ransom rest or some other vise like rest for a more definitive test) The gun you have for home defense seems to be accurate enough.

The folks that do the tests for the gun magazines typically shoot 5 shot groups to test accuracy. 10 shot groups will surely provide an opportunity to shoot a larger group.

I shot a short video for youtube showing an impromptu range visit to check the accuracy of my M&P9. Mine put 9 rounds into 2 1/2" with the 10th round opening up the group to 3" at 25 yards, in less than ideal conditions. A 5 shot group would most likely have been smaller.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAmqRHq5R1c

[nick84]

I started out a few years ago looking for my "house gun", and an early model M&P9 was on my list. I liked the full capacity, DAO, grip angle preferable to glock (personal gripe), and it seemed fairly reliable. The one in the LGS had night sights (must for me) and a threaded barrel. That kind of sold me because I intended to get a can (never did). This was about 3-4 years ago maybe. Since I have gotten to know my Smith, I'm not as smitten. Trigger seems gritty, but it holds a decent group. Hard for me to compare directly to the OP, as I never shoot off of a bench, and I don't claim to be a maestro either. But as my house gun search evolved, I started from a different point. Instead of asking myself which gun I wanted to use on potential home invaders and troublemakers, I started asking myself what kind of bullets I wanted to shoot them with. That's when I observed what is sort of correlated in the OP: the M&P does not prefer higher grain ammo. With 115 it seems to be ok. With 147 Ranger HP, not so much and not quite as reliable. Obviously, YMMV, not every spring is exactly the same. But to address your general accuracy concerns overall, I just don't think its that good of a weapon.

[SkiDevil]

If you feel inclined to keep the pistols then send it back to S&W or purchse a set of custom aftermarket barrels.

Otherwise, if I was looking for match grade type accuracy out of a polymer framed pistol, then I would purchse an HK P30 or USP variant. Either will shoot more accurately and can be easily set-up to run a can with a factory threaded barrel.

I would just conclude in saying that from the target photos posted most of those listed groups displayed adequate self-defense accuracy.

[EvilBetty]

Your accuracy issues could be caused by many factors. From your fit to the gun / grip, your shooting ability with that gun, the trigger, the barrel lock up, etc.

If you haven't yet, Google "M&P 9 Accuracy" you will find MANY forum threads and articles on the topic.

I have encountered this twice. On one gun it was a very nasty gritting trigger. The sear block had ugly marks on it causing the shooter to unknowingly flinch as the trigger bar grinded across the sear block. Sear block was replaced with a APEX USB and the groups shrank considerably.

The other gun was an early M&P 9L that had a lockup issue. The barrel was replaced by S&W on the 3rd return and groups were improved.

Others I've heard of were cured with heavier recoil springs.

Have you had anyone who claims to be proficient with an M&P shoot it? Have you been able to shoot other M&P's well?

[Apricotshot]

This is a known issue with M&Ps in 9mm produced in the last few years. Some may be fine others are horrid. I'm not sure about the most recent ones though.

[Psalms144.1]

I hate to read threads like this, primarily because I KNOW how freaking frustrating it can be when you have a pistol you love that just won't do what it's supposed to. Secondly, I can't stand listening to the "it's not the pistol, it's YOU" responses from people who get butthurt that someone says "boo" about their personal favorite pistol. Especially when the OP posts photographic evidence in the begining of the thread showing that he knows how to shoot an M&P9. I mean, this isn't Glocktalk, is it? I expect a little higher level of professionalism on M4C...

Ash - my confusion is this. You say this barrel & guts worked well in another frame. Why swap to the current frame? I'd put it all back in the old frame; if it shoots to standard in that frame, problem solved (less the cost of stippling). We are talking about $400 mass-produced polymer pistols here - consistency from sample to sample isn't likely to be that close that you can swap major components without getting strange results...

Best of luck!