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Thread: Does your SHTF rifle have a red dot or magnified optics?

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurodriver View Post
    Put me in a combat situation and I'm using any tool I have to observe everyone and everything as effectively as possible. When a pregnant woman might be a 40 year old man with a suicide vest and all I have is a 4x ACOG on top of my rifle, I really don't give a shit what someone on the internet thinks are appropriate observation techniques.

    Unless I missed something in the definition of "SHTF" in the title, we're not talking about an LEO SWAT standoff or a private square range with a bunch of idiots that require strict adherence to the 4 safety rules for liability and safety reasons.

    Have fun with your binoculars.

    Edit: I removed the pic as it was a bit unnecessary for the thread.
    None of this answers the question. When are the rules suspended, and why?

    To lend you support: I can understand a need to be able to engage a question-mark. Soldier or police officer facing a possible threat may have his weapon at ready in the general direction of the subject, or even bead-on, until he can be sure the subject is not a threat. But in the photograph you posted, no exigency exists (the fact that you could devote the time and attention to digging out the phone, lining it up with the sights, and snapping the picture proves this). Furthermore, you seem to be defending using the weapon sight as a set of "binoculars." As though this is a common and general practice of yours for when you want to see something or someone closer.

    It's good that you don't care what I think. But you brought this into the conversation, not me. I'm simply wanting to understand your logic.

    You say "in a combat situation." Where is the line drawn? How specifically do the rules change? Is is a full suspension of the rules? Does a man's life mean less to you because of a combination of physical attributes, dress, language, and nationality? Would you use your weapon sight to scrutinize Americans?

    I get the feeling, talking to some combat veterans, that there's a generalized sense of "we do what we have to and don't make excuses" when it comes to the rules in combat or combat zones. That's all fine and well, when it's a matter of lives. But I challenge the notion that this means one becomes the inventor of his own rules. Ethically, at least. That simply by having been in a firefight or twenty, one is enlightened to the point of being above the need for standards that apply to the safety or well being of other human beings.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidjinks View Post
    Are you saying
    Asking is not saying.

  3. #213
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    Currently am running a TA-31H but am wanting to go back to a T1/H1 set up.

  4. #214
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    Dead Man, I believe you've done a great job explaining it.

    There is something else to consider:

    A friendly "unknown" approaches one to find a firearm pointed at them, there is an instant escalation of what would normally be an uneventful encounter.

    Is having a firearm pointed at an individual a threat? If so, then a is that individual then justified in firing?

    There is more to consider than the half a second it takes to lay down your binos when you make the decision to point a firearm at an unknown individual for no reason other than to identify them.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mamma View Post
    What scope mount is shown in that picture?

    Joe Mamma
    It's a LaRue SPR-E, love it. I have the SPR-E and the SPR 1.5 for both of my Vortex systems.
    CHECK YOUR SIX!!!

    Certified GLOCK ARMORER

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidjinks View Post
    Let's think about this for a second.

    We're talking about a SHTF scenario right? I'd assume that to mean everything has gone to shit and it's pretty much survival mode for humans right?

    With that being said, we engage a hostile threat. Let's say that hostile threat is in a group. We were readily able to identify that particular person as an immediate threat. But, we don't know if the rest of the members in that group is a threat. We engage known threat, assess threat, scan for more targets right? Are you saying that we should immediately sling our rifle and take out our trusty binos to look for another threat?

    Or would we use the current tool at hand (For me that would be a 1-4X24 NF)? Basically engage threat, end threat, scan, assess and re-engage hostile threats. I would do this all while looking through my scope.

    Are you saying that we shouldn't do this?
    I am with you on this all the way. I have been in situations where I had to use my optics to get a PID, such as IR, Thermal and so on. Or use it for recon purposes, either way the topic is SHTF, with that, all "peaceful" or otherwise scenarios got out the window. If you have to engage the enemy or sort out who is a threat or not, you may not have time to pick up the bino's do your read and then pick up your fire arm and re-engage the target and then take the shot if needed. Some may use a less "threatening" SOP, not me.....
    All of this could relate to hunting as well. You see your game you have been waiting to see for a week or so in the bino's, $hit, I picked up my rifle and by the time I found it again, it was gone. Sorry, not how I plan on spending my hunting season.
    Last edited by TACTICAL45; 02-02-14 at 22:15.
    CHECK YOUR SIX!!!

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  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mamma View Post
    What scope mount is shown in that picture?

    Joe Mamma
    Unless I'm mistaken that is a Larue SPR-E (LT139).

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by MorphCross View Post
    Unless I'm mistaken that is a Larue SPR-E (LT139).
    Thanks for helping out, but you were 20 minutes late.
    CHECK YOUR SIX!!!

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  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Man View Post
    None of this answers the question. When are the rules suspended, and why?

    To lend you support: I can understand a need to be able to engage a question-mark. Soldier or police officer facing a possible threat may have his weapon at ready in the general direction of the subject, or even bead-on, until he can be sure the subject is not a threat. But in the photograph you posted, no exigency exists (the fact that you could devote the time and attention to digging out the phone, lining it up with the sights, and snapping the picture proves this). Furthermore, you seem to be defending using the weapon sight as a set of "binoculars." As though this is a common and general practice of yours for when you want to see something or someone closer.

    It's good that you don't care what I think. But you brought this into the conversation, not me. I'm simply wanting to understand your logic.

    You say "in a combat situation." Where is the line drawn? How specifically do the rules change? Is is a full suspension of the rules? Does a man's life mean less to you because of a combination of physical attributes, dress, language, and nationality? Would you use your weapon sight to scrutinize Americans?

    I get the feeling, talking to some combat veterans, that there's a generalized sense of "we do what we have to and don't make excuses" when it comes to the rules in combat or combat zones. That's all fine and well, when it's a matter of lives. But I challenge the notion that this means one becomes the inventor of his own rules. Ethically, at least. That simply by having been in a firefight or twenty, one is enlightened to the point of being above the need for standards that apply to the safety or well being of other human beings.
    I took a Ken Hackathorn class a few months ago. He said something to the effect of: the most important rule is to keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot. Unless your weapon is grossly unsafe to handle or you get something caught in your trigger guard like a branch or your shirt when holstering it, the weapon won't go off.

    We violate "every gun is loaded" and "don't point the weapon at something you don't want to destroy" all the time. ALL the time. Is the weapon loaded when you've removed the magazine, taken the upper and lower apart, and removed the bolt carrier? According to the rules of gun safety, yes, it is. It's not only loaded, but it can still apparently destroy things when it's sitting on your bench and is essentially nothing more than a metal pipe with rails.

    In urban environments when working with a team, you'll muzzle sweep your team at some point. They'll do it to you too. But it's unavoidable.

    The one key thing is to keep your finger off the trigger. All other rules are a distant second, third, and fourth in priority. They're still important, but in even a potential life or death situation, it's perfectly with the intent of the safety rules to use your weapon scope to ID your target. It's not a good idea to do that AND have your finger on the trigger.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  10. #220
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    I have a TA31H ACOG with a fiber optic RMR mounted on top of it sitting on my SR-15. No batteries, no moving parts, built like a tank..

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