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Thread: What makes a competition gun not a good combat gun?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by discreet View Post
    Think this sums up some of the types of things we see in gamer guns lol. BTW they even have a titanium carrier coming out to reduce even more weight. Same swiss cheese design. Would be the perfect match for a hydraulic buffer

    What exactly is your point? Is there some connection you are trying to make. I guess we can look at it like this many ways. How about this. Many people on this site (myself included) build or buy rifles with top of the line parts because we want the best possible rifle. We want this rifle to be the best for lots of reasons, including protection. Know one said anything about that here, but a comp shooter building a gun to give them the best chance to win is a problem. It is also important to point out that many of the advances in our rifles come from competition shooters. If you look at the top of the 3gun world the very best are mil or LE. The Army has some of the absolute best there is. What many of you fail to understand is it is not the gear that make our mil and swat good, it is their tactics. Most people on this site have no idea what proper tactics are or how to even clear a room properly, but you'll come on here and talk shit about comp shooters that actually shoot their guns. For informational purposes both my match guns are built by me and include Noveske SS barrels, Vltor uppers, Troy rails, Lancer lowers, Geissele triggers, LMT BCG, and other top end parts. I understand the need for top of the line parts, and I would have no problem trusting my builds to make entrys with. They have both been more reliable than my issued 11.5" DD factory SBR. I guess people should stay in their lane if they don't understand what's in the other.

    Matt

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockshooter View Post
    What exactly is your point? Is there some connection you are trying to make. I guess we can look at it like this many ways. How about this. Many people on this site (myself included) build or buy rifles with top of the line parts because we want the best possible rifle. We want this rifle to be the best for lots of reasons, including protection. Know one said anything about that here, but a comp shooter building a gun to give them the best chance to win is a problem. It is also important to point out that many of the advances in our rifles come from competition shooters. If you look at the top of the 3gun world the very best are mil or LE. The Army has some of the absolute best there is. What many of you fail to understand is it is not the gear that make our mil and swat good, it is their tactics. Most people on this site have no idea what proper tactics are or how to even clear a room properly, but you'll come on here and talk shit about comp shooters that actually shoot their guns. For informational purposes both my match guns are built by me and include Noveske SS barrels, Vltor uppers, Troy rails, Lancer lowers, Geissele triggers, LMT BCG, and other top end parts. I understand the need for top of the line parts, and I would have no problem trusting my builds to make entrys with. They have both been more reliable than my issued 11.5" DD factory SBR. I guess people should stay in their lane if they don't understand what's in the other.

    Matt
    I get it, your into gaming guns and think they will do just fine for HD. Same story as the people with DPMS rifles that think they will be just fine for HD. To each their own. I sure wouldn't take a dedicated gaming gun into a firefight, just like I wouldn't take a dedicated combat gun into a 3g competition.

    Again, to each their own. I bet most of the SME's would never go close to having a dedicated gaming gun for HD. But it's up to the end user in the end. All these custom parts, and finnicky things IMO have no place on a combat type gun. But then again, some people carry .22's for self defense also. Again, to each their own and there is no point in trying to convince you otherwise, as your set in your ways.

    Btw, try to type in paragraphs. I got about 2 sentences in to what you had to say as it was one huge jumbled paragraph. Also no need to assume many here don't know squat about tactics etc. You are in a forum filled with LEO's and Military people, including some SME's who have done lightyears more than you or I ever will in terms of Combat.


    Lastly when did any of us talk shit about gamers, or their shooting ability? When did we talk shit about their guns. The whole thing is about gaming guns used for HD/Combat. Nothing to do with putting down gamers or their tools. You are definitely twisting this around and obviously taking things way personal.
    Last edited by discreet; 02-08-14 at 19:13. Reason: additional stuff
    From TOS ... "buy the shit out of that thing, all the mil spec is just nonsense."

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaxman7 View Post
    My 3G rifle is my combat rifle. Combat rifle is priority. Everything else is secondary.

    -Jax
    To me, the ONLY reason to participate in gun games is to make me a better shooter in offensive or defensive situations. So that means that I would compete with the gun that I would grab to defend myself. If people are not doing this, then is it strictly "golf with a gun" and makes zero sense to me.

    So you are going the right direction IMHO.

    While I am on my soapbox, I wonder how many "gamers" take tactics and mindset classes? Seems kind of a waste to be a fast shooter and not know how to clear a room in the dark.


    C4

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    After reading through some more of the replies in this thread I think quite a few people are under the impression that there is some huge material difference between the "gamer gun" and the "combat gun", I don't believe there is. For instance: all this talk of tolerances and clearness is off base. The vast majority of gamers I've been exposed to (me included) are getting their parts from the same companies the combat guys get their parts. There isn't a bunch of companies putting out the super close tolerance BCG or upper or lower receivers, the super close tolerance butt stock or receiver extension. The irons, magnified optics and RDS and mounts are all the same. The handguards are pretty much the same also. Same triggers ( anything from a stock mil-spec to a Wilson TTU 3G). There are a few companies that are chasing the ultimate in low recoil with low weight BCGs etc. and some guys but by all means not all are going that way. The idea that a typical gamer gun is somehow equivalent to F1 racer is ridiculous. The professional shooters and monied guys might be going for the cutting edge stuff mostly in practice sessions (who wants their gun to go down in a big match with money at stake) but the vast majority are using pretty common place stuff for their matches.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    To me, the ONLY reason to participate in gun games is to make me a better shooter in offensive or defensive situations. So that means that I would compete with the gun that I would grab to defend myself. If people are not doing this, then is it strictly "golf with a gun" and makes zero sense to me.

    So you are going the right direction IMHO.

    While I am on my soapbox, I wonder how many "gamers" take tactics and mindset classes? Seems kind of a waste to be a fast shooter and not know how to clear a room in the dark.


    C4
    ^This.

    I shoot in local 3 Gun matches, but mainly to get some trigger time in while moving around and shooting from different / awkward positions at different ranges with the induced stress on the clock. Others do it purely for the competition aspect. Fine with me. Different strokes for different folks.

    Apart from being finicky from specialty parts and being tuned to a specific ammunition, one of the biggest issues with a true competition gun is that the majority I've seen tend to be long, using full-length stocks and 18" barrels. You're approaching M16 lengths with these rifles. MOUT, room clearing, getting in and out of vehicles with full gear, etc. is doable with these weapons (many did it with A2/A4's), but it's not ideal. A smaller carbine just fits most modern combat scenarios better.
    Last edited by thecolter; 02-08-14 at 20:45.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    To me, the ONLY reason to participate in gun games is to make me a better shooter in offensive or defensive situations. So that means that I would compete with the gun that I would grab to defend myself. If people are not doing this, then is it strictly "golf with a gun" and makes zero sense to me.

    So you are going the right direction IMHO.

    While I am on my soapbox, I wonder how many "gamers" take tactics and mindset classes? Seems kind of a waste to be a fast shooter and not know how to clear a room in the dark.


    C4
    If that's why you would do it that's fine, but you make it sound like anything less than that is wrong. Some people shoot comp simply because it's fun. Good for them. Some of us don't have thousands of dollars to attend schools, we're busy feeding and clothing our families. I suppose I could forgo gaming for 4-5 years to attend one school. Some of us do read the combat biased literature to at least understand some of it. It's amazing that even 80 yr old ladies defend themselves with nothing but a 38 revolver, no gunfighting school, and guts.
    Last edited by TomMcC; 02-08-14 at 20:13.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomMcC View Post
    After reading through some more of the replies in this thread I think quite a few people are under the impression that there is some huge material difference between the "gamer gun" and the "combat gun", I don't believe there is. For instance: all this talk of tolerances and clearness is off base. The vast majority of gamers I've been exposed to (me included) are getting their parts from the same companies the combat guys get their parts. There isn't a bunch of companies putting out the super close tolerance BCG or upper or lower receivers, the super close tolerance butt stock or receiver extension. The irons, magnified optics and RDS and mounts are all the same. The handguards are pretty much the same also. Same triggers ( anything from a stock mil-spec to a Wilson TTU 3G). There are a few companies that are chasing the ultimate in low recoil with low weight BCGs etc. and some guys but by all means not all are going that way. The idea that a typical gamer gun is somehow equivalent to F1 racer is ridiculous. The professional shooters and monied guys might be going for the cutting edge stuff mostly in practice sessions (who wants their gun to go down in a big match with money at stake) but the vast majority are using pretty common place stuff for their matches.

    If you are running brands like BCM , VLTOR, KAC, COLT, etc I don't think this thread is about you in any way.


    C4

  8. #48
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    What makes a competition gun not a good combat gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomMcC View Post
    If that's why you would do it that's fine, but you make it sound like anything less than that is wrong. Some people shoot comp simply because it's fun. Good for them. Some of us don't have thousands of dollars to attend schools, we're busy feeding and clothing our families. I suppose I could forgo gaming for 4-5 years to attend one school. Some of us do read the combat biased literature to a least understand some of it. It's amazing that even 80 yr old ladies defend themselves with nothing but a 38 revolver, no gunfighting school, and guts.

    I have a somewhat blue collar/totalitarian view of firearms. Firearms first and foremost purpose is self preservation, preservation of loved ones and the overthrow of evil Govt's. A distant second is hunting. Owning firearms so you can play a gun game is silly to me and honestly don't understand it. To be clear, I see a huge benefit of competition, shot timers and tracking ones times and such.

    One of my favorite instructors made the comment that he would rather be good than lucky. IMHO, the people that survive gun fights (with zero training) are lucky and or the bad guy wasn't committed.

    If golf with a gun is your thing, drive on. Just realize that you are fooling yourself about the true purpose of a gun.

    I would suggest watching this vid from Kyle: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4vPCqMo9TCg


    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 02-08-14 at 20:48.

  9. #49
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    I don't know if it's apathy or epiphany, but I'm finding myself less and less inclined to get twisted up about what other people are doing with their guns. I shoot matches with guys with uber-fancy F1 raceguns. They win some, I win some. At the end of the match, it's not their guns I'm taking home to defend my life, family, and home with. Just my own.

    The thing I have come to feel strongly about is not dismissing or denigrating those in the sport shooting and competitive disciplines. I've found that when deliberately contemplated, there are things they have to offer. And unlike many other folks, they are actually shooting their guns, with their strengths and warts in full view of others.
    2012 National Zumba Endurance Champion
    الدهون القاع الفتيات لك جعل العالم هزاز جولة الذهاب

  10. #50
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    I agree, the 1st purpose of firearms is serious and for that reason I have actually taken some schooling. But I can't afford to spend thousands on schools today. I need recreation of some sort, working 2 jobs for the last 20yrs wears a body out. I like shooting so I 3gun, it's relatively inexpensive, brings me a lot of happiness, and has definitely made me a better shooter, but tactics it's not. As for the original premise of the thread, I just don't think the hardware is all that different as some have thought. I'll watch the vid.

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