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Thread: What makes a competition gun not a good combat gun?

  1. #61
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    Its like this. I got into an "argument" with a guy on ARFCOM. We both own Sig 516. He wants more "rail" space vs adding 1 oz for the new Lancer longer, better usable CF hand guard.

    So I called him out and he has yet to respond....gamer

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerrysimons View Post
    Agreed. Inside a climate controlled enviornment where the gun sits cleaned and lubed is an ideal condition for reliabible function. A nightstand gun, whether it rests on top of the nightstand or leans against it, is slightly different in my mind than a combat/SHTF gun.
    Think you are generalizing what HD is to everyone. Some people also train excessively hard with their HD guns in very adverse conditions. To think the gun will lean against the nightstand lubed and clean all its life is faily off base. This would be the same gun you'd choose to take to classes and run the crap out of it, the same gun youd beat on and drag all over the place. It's a tool not a safe queen. Again I generalized with HD/Combat gun because really, you will want the same qualities in both. Will run in all conditions, won't fail when dirty or not cleaned, won't fail when you need it most etc.
    From TOS ... "buy the shit out of that thing, all the mil spec is just nonsense."

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by discreet View Post
    Think you are generalizing what HD is to everyone. Some people also train excessively hard with their HD guns in very adverse conditions. To think the gun will lean against the nightstand lubed and clean all its life is faily off base. This would be the same gun you'd choose to take to classes and run the crap out of it, the same gun youd beat on and drag all over the place. It's a tool not a safe queen. Again I generalized with HD/Combat gun because really, you will want the same qualities in both. Will run in all conditions, won't fail when dirty or not cleaned, won't fail when you need it most etc.
    On the contrary, I specified exactly the aspect of self-defense to which I was referring, in distinction to other aspects.

    As I see it, a nightstand gun is a gun that is always in the home with you and is ready to be of use in and around the home, if needed. Sure you are going to take it to the range, train in a class, go plink with it, etc. After use, however, it will always be cleaned and lubed before being placed at its station. This will be done on the same defensive principle of stacking the odds of reliability in your favor as is used when selecting parts for defensive guns.

    The home is climate controlled which, together with cleaning and lubrication, provides ideal conditions for function. Under these ideal conditions, using proper ammo, a tricked out game gun (adjustable gas block, lightweight reciprocating assembly, etc.) will probably get the job done inside and around the home. There the conditions are as good or better than than those at a range/match. All that to say, if a gun is primarily for life support, why wouldn't you also chose a gun with components that are stacked in the favor of reliability? Even if it will be dedicated to the nightstand?

    Now, maybe for some, a nightstand gun (if it is not their only gun) will also be the first gun they grab in a bug out SHTF situation. Which, I suppose, at least means traveling in some capacity with your gun for self-defense with limited supplies in whatever adverse environments or weather conditions you may find yourself. Kind of like combat. Others may have more than one purpose built gun, leaving the nightstand gun behind. The distinction between enviornments may or
    may not give latitude for parts selection between dedicated rifles depending on what the user is comfortable with (reliability still being top priority). The main example I can think of is a QD RDS mount. I am fine with a fixed RDS mount on a dedicated HD/nightstand gun but consider it a must on a combat/SHTf gun. QD being the obvious choice if you can only have one purpose built rifle.
    Last edited by jerrysimons; 02-09-14 at 14:09.

  4. #64
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    From my observations, average competitive shooters see much less of a difference relative to placement in standings then do the top level pros when it comes to weapon / equipment. In other words their skills are the bigger factor than the equipment. Only at the top levels of competitors does it really start to become an arms or equipment race where tenths can mean a win or loss. So for the overwhelming majority of competitive shooters you can get by easily with a weapons set up that could easily fit into either role. Working with a reliable base rifle adding a comp, a good trigger and good optic and you are pretty much set. Other niceties like grips, stocks, forends are nothing exotic. I build rifles all the time that would be excellent rifles in either role and are often used by local competition shooters. The only thing needed for home defense would be to mount the light and sling and maybe an optic swap.

    If / when I ever decide to find the time to compete in organized competition, I will be there to win. I will do whatever it takes with weapons / gear within the parameters of the class rules to give an advantage. I will also game the heck out of it within the limit of the rules. It is a game, I understand the difference between game and tactical training. I would treat gun games no different than any other sport I compete(d) in. The goal is to win. I understand however if the only time / place people have to practice their defensive skills is during a competition then no problem either.

    I too am waaaay beyond what others choose to do with their firearms. Gamers are just as integral part of the shooting culture as hunters and defensive types.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skintop911 View Post
    I don't know if it's apathy or epiphany, but I'm finding myself less and less inclined to get twisted up about what other people are doing with their guns. I shoot matches with guys with uber-fancy F1 raceguns. They win some, I win some. At the end of the match, it's not their guns I'm taking home to defend my life, family, and home with. Just my own.

    The thing I have come to feel strongly about is not dismissing or denigrating those in the sport shooting and competitive disciplines. I've found that when deliberately contemplated, there are things they have to offer. And unlike many other folks, they are actually shooting their guns, with their strengths and warts in full view of others.
    Very well said

  6. #66
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    I agree, a tricked out gamer gun would be just fine for HD if it is reliable in a matches and can shoot full power loads just fine. A comp however would produce excessive blast and concussion that would be no bueno inside.

    Personally, if I were to get into 3 gun, I wouldn't even remotely consider buying competition guns unless/until I was so good that optimized gaming gear would matter. I probably don't have the time/dedication and $ to ever reach that point I'm sure...
    "The world's a dangerous place – we can help." -www.portlandfirearmtraining.com
    NRA LE Handgun-Shotgun Instructor/Life Member

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold View Post
    Just pick the right tool for the job.

    For the sport of 3 gun, there are better tools than a stock AR-15 from (insert your fav brand here).

    My "Saves the day" Ar-15 rifle is a 14.5" Noveske with a Aimpoint Micro and a FH and is stock from Noveske. Hardly anything I would compete with personally.

    I look at it in this very simple manner, if I was going salt water fishing I wouldn't bring a fresh water rig and visa versa.

    Now if you like to shoot the gun games with your HD gun, that is also more than acceptable, it just depends on your personal approach and goals with respect to this subject. Are you their to get more shooting in, get more proficient with the gun, training, etc.

    No one persons opinion 's right on this topic, its very subjective and individualized.

    Those that don't know Cold, he is an awesome shooter and also knows the difference between guns built for competition and ones built for defense/offense. While we don't share the same opinion about gun games, I respect his opinion as he has high levels of common sense.

    Thanks for the post Cold.


    C4

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by discreet View Post
    Think you are generalizing what HD is to everyone. Some people also train excessively hard with their HD guns in very adverse conditions. To think the gun will lean against the nightstand lubed and clean all its life is faily off base. This would be the same gun you'd choose to take to classes and run the crap out of it, the same gun youd beat on and drag all over the place. It's a tool not a safe queen. Again I generalized with HD/Combat gun because really, you will want the same qualities in both. Will run in all conditions, won't fail when dirty or not cleaned, won't fail when you need it most etc.
    Why would you use your HD gun as a training gun? Just get two and set them up identically after wringing one out to see that it works as advertised, then train with the other. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to put a ton of wear into a HD gun; you want it to be relatively unused outside of the vetting process so that you aren't likely to run into unexpected service issues when things get hairy.
    ˇˇKawaii Desu Ne Haruhi-Chan!!

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzintzuntzan View Post
    Why would you use your HD gun as a training gun? Just get two and set them up identically after wringing one out to see that it works as advertised, then train with the other. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to put a ton of wear into a HD gun; you want it to be relatively unused outside of the vetting process so that you aren't likely to run into unexpected service issues when things get hairy.
    The same reason as many do. A new gun doesn't = reliability. Using a gun is what proves it will work when it's most needed.

    See 0 point in having a duped gun just for some worry that using it will suddenly make the gun less reliable. Also knowing what your doing while working on guns so you have an idea if gas rings etc are going bad. Called general maintenance. You don't own duplicate cars just in case you have an emergency and one might fail because you use it every day do you?
    From TOS ... "buy the shit out of that thing, all the mil spec is just nonsense."

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by discreet View Post
    The same reason as many do. A new gun doesn't = reliability. Using a gun is what proves it will work when it's most needed.

    See 0 point in having a duped gun just for some worry that using it will suddenly make the gun less reliable. Also knowing what your doing while working on guns so you have an idea if gas rings etc are going bad. Called general maintenance. You don't own duplicate cars just in case you have an emergency and one might fail because you use it every day do you?
    What are you talking about? I never said just buy a new gun and it will be made of adamantium. What I said was get two, test one out extensively to see if it's okay. If it is then set it aside and use the other to see what you like, or if you already know what you like then just put those parts on both as quickly as funds allow. I never said to just trust a carbine you've never tested to defend yourself.
    ˇˇKawaii Desu Ne Haruhi-Chan!!

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