Hilton Yam's path away from the 1911

[jedi391]

Fitness would probably have been a better example, I was just trying to think of another item we purchase that can impact our safety, car seemed to be the one most likely to determine safety as it's the most likely thing we buy that can make the difference between life and death in a bad situation.

To keep it gun specific, is anyone aware of a case of an LEO killed or injured because their 1911 failed to function which allowed a bad guy to shoot them first? Actually with any gun type? If so what was the make/model?

[QuickStrike]

Does not really apply to people like me who arent mil/leo imo.

My take on 1911's and any pistol:

Get a reliable one
Get another
Practice/train with one
Carry the other

[Bigun]

I was brought up old school with a 1911, my first duty gun in the military as a MP was a well worn Remington rand made in 1945, I have carried a 1911 off and on for the last 30 plus years. I know the platform inside and out as I also know the Beretta 92 and SIG Classic Series pistols. All pistols will fail if not properly maintained some take longer to fail than others and some just fail right out of the box. With a 1911 keep it simple A 70 series gun will fail less than an 80 series which will fail less than a pistol equipped with a schwartz style FPS. Most importantly change springs and clean on a regular basis. I dont care if my pistol can make it through a 600 rd course without cleaning, but mine has had several 600 rd plus days, will it make it through the one magazine in the pistol and the two on my belt every time is what concearns me. I've never had a properly set up and tuned 1911 let me down under those criteria. Short sighted? Maybe, Old School Definately. But then again I've never had wet dreams about chasing Zombies or shooting troops in Blue helmets either.

[Joe R.]

I think many of you are missing the point. Hilton is not saying that it is not possible to have a reliable 1911. He's saying that the propensity for problems is higher with a 1911 then many of the modern designs. Furthermore he's not saying you are a soup sandwich if you make the INFORMED choice to carry a 1911 based on your actual needs as opposed to emotion (which is what normally happens). And last, this whole thing is based on service weapons, not one you decide to carry for CCW or just enjoy at the range. That implies high round counts (honestly high, not internet gun test high).

If after careful consideration you make the decision to carry a 1911, then rock on with your bad self. Hilton is simply offering what he has seen over many years with hundreds of thousands of rounds sent downrange. I realized several years ago that for Me a polymer pistol made more sense. Like many of you I'm a huge fan of the 1911 (just bought an original 1911 1918 Black Army). I learned as much as I could about them and learned to build them myself with help from Hilton and attending Larry's 1911 gunsmith class. I will never be without 1911s in my safe. Is it the gun I chose to carry daily for CCW and duty? No. It's a personal choice. Just ensure you base that choice on logic and reason...not emotion.

[mike240]

I think this would be a bad assumption to make.


C4

Why because my 35 years with it mean nothing? I have made my living carry a gun and going after people for nearly 30 years. Have you? I have a few with as much as 50k rounds each through them with NO parts breakages. They are not custom guns. They require no more maintenance than the glocks I have been forced to carry at times. There is a lot of hype about the 1911. If you say I have gotten lucky with a couple anomalies then I will say I have had 15 of those and seen many many others.

While I don't dispute the experiences of others that have taught classes you have attended; no one has the right to dispute mine. For the first time buyer seeking one, all this talk may scare them to plastic guns. Fine. But if one puts their money where their mouth is and has paid for over 20 over the years, like I have. And uses them for work play and competition. And loads about 15k a year to push through them; I can say that the system works without spending $5000 on one.

If you want more rounds than a single stack fine. Then get whatever. But frankly I am not convinced of your firsthand experience with one. And my experiences make me skeptical of those that profit from their opinions.

[T-TAC]

I'm a big fan of the 1911 design for more than 25 years. With that said if I had to train a police force, I would pick something along the lines of a Glock or S&W M&P.
I think a lot of cops aren't really into guns, so something that's easy to operate and maintain, makes sense.
As a side effect, trainers such as Larry Vickers will be more likely to have a Glock in their holster over a 1911 because they need to work with the same or similar gun that they are training other people with.

[mike240]

Jedi

I understand your LEO position is shootings and round count. I know several guys in ALQ NM which may lead the country for years in OISs. That department is very heavy 1911. The town is a shooting gallery and many a bad guy killed with 1911s. I know of no complaints against the gun from them.

[TehLlama]

It has been a few years since I have taken a class with Larry, but at that point I took his 1911 class he still acknowledged that the 1911 was the easiest gun to shoot well. Ken said the same thing (and I will ask him again next month). There seems to be a disconnect between this and what they recommend to a generic shooter. That being said, I personally can shoot a 1911 accurately faster than I can any other pistol. This is pretty much my definition of "best." Would I choose a different pistol if I was outfitting Ukrainian conscripts? Yes.

I think the biggest distinction is what they mean when they say easy to shoot well - for somebody who isn't going to spend an entire case of ammunition running drills and shooting exercises that are hard, then the traits of the 1911 will do more to improve their shooting accuracy than whatever training they are likely to deem 'adequate' before going back to just running drills within comfort zone (or just blasting berms).
If you're making a recommendation to somebody willing to spend the cost differential on practice ammunition, training, and really put in some work improving their individual skills, I'm pretty sure the G19 is the undisputed answer for what to recommend.

Because of how nice to shoot a well built 1911 is, the demand for those is massive. Insert some basic laws of economics, and for anybody looking at cost/benefit analysis of running a well sorted 1911, and it's pretty much as lopsided as possible when pistols designed around modern manufacturing techniques can be manufactured cheaper and still run better with regard to maintenance and part lifetimes.

For my part, I have nice 1911's, and I'm more competent on them mostly because they're more fun to shoot. At my financial situation (school is expensive), I feel that I need to derive some enjoyment in addition to training utility from range sessions, so I disproportionately run my 1911's because I have more fun shooting them, consequently I'm a lot better with them, but I've been putting more effort recently into sucking less with my Shield, since that's what I've started carrying most frequently anyway.

Minivan/SUV - with competent driver the SUV is safer and more flexible, especially if you're looking at the sort of accidents that cause life changing injuries, the SUV is safer for a variety of reasons; even in rollover accidents modern 9+ airbag SUVs are incredibly safe, especially when compared to equivalent safety rated econoboxes (which the assumption in any collisions at highway speed or with 18 wheelers is a forgone conclusion of pancake).

[jedi391]

I think the biggest distinction is what they mean when they say easy to shoot well - for somebody who isn't going to spend an entire case of ammunition running drills and shooting exercises that are hard, then the traits of the 1911 will do more to improve their shooting accuracy than whatever training they are likely to deem 'adequate' before going back to just running drills within comfort zone (or just blasting berms).
If you're making a recommendation to somebody willing to spend the cost differential on practice ammunition, training, and really put in some work improving their individual skills, I'm pretty sure the G19 is the undisputed answer for what to recommend.

Because of how nice to shoot a well built 1911 is, the demand for those is massive. Insert some basic laws of economics, and for anybody looking at cost/benefit analysis of running a well sorted 1911, and it's pretty much as lopsided as possible when pistols designed around modern manufacturing techniques can be manufactured cheaper and still run better with regard to maintenance and part lifetimes.

For my part, I have nice 1911's, and I'm more competent on them mostly because they're more fun to shoot. At my financial situation (school is expensive), I feel that I need to derive some enjoyment in addition to training utility from range sessions, so I disproportionately run my 1911's because I have more fun shooting them, consequently I'm a lot better with them, but I've been putting more effort recently into sucking less with my Shield, since that's what I've started carrying most frequently anyway.

Minivan/SUV - with competent driver the SUV is safer and more flexible, especially if you're looking at the sort of accidents that cause life changing injuries, the SUV is safer for a variety of reasons; even in rollover accidents modern 9+ airbag SUVs are incredibly safe, especially when compared to equivalent safety rated econoboxes (which the assumption in any collisions at highway speed or with 18 wheelers is a forgone conclusion of pancake).

They're not:

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...than-minivans/

And this quote from the most recent IIHS study I could find.
"The worst minivan is safer than the best SUV. Clearly anyone who buys an SUV with the goal of providing safer transportation for their families has made a serious mistake."

Every NHTSA, IIHS, peer reviewed study I can find says the same thing. I'm open to studies I may have missed.

[MountainRaven]

I like, no love, the 1911. But it's all emotive. The only benefit to it that I can think of is that it has a nice trigger.

As far as, the 1911 having been around for over a century, so it must be doing something right… pop open a MidwayUSA catalog and you'll find that guns that are over 150 years old are still being made and sold - some of them a lot older. Colt still lists the Model P (aka M1873, aka Peacemaker, aka Single-Action Army) as a production firearm and there are numerous companies that produce nearly identical weapons. Gunsite even has a course that teaches defensive use of the single-action revolver. Never mind the fact that there are guys building swords and knives the same way they were being made 1000 years ago.

So if your measure is longevity, we should all be packing swords and knives and flintlocks with some percussion revolvers for the those who want more firepower.

As far as the minivan thing goes: Volvo doesn't make a minivan. And Vickers, last I heard, was driving a Tundra.

More seriously: I remember being tasked in middle school with devising a vehicle for an egg that would allow the egg to survive a simulated 35mph front-on collision. I remember studying and researching crumple zones and all that and reading that it basically boiled down to the largest, most massive vehicles are the safest. So I built my 'vehicle' to the maximum allowed specs for overall length, height, width, and weight. Needless to say, my egg survived. (Although most of the eggs of the guys who didn't even bother with research had their eggs survive, too, so….)

Finally, I would put forth the motion that any man who suggests that a minivan is better than an SUV or truck for anything other than emasculation should be required to make their EDC a pink 38, 380, or smaller caliber "pocket" handgun for a period not less than 12 months. (That's a wink. Means I'm being silly.)