Tavor, a true successor to the ar15?

[JusticeM4]

Why would one need to swap the receiver?

What's "RE"?

The handguard/forearm on the Tavor can be changed. Check out Gear Head Works and Midwest Industries. Both make a forearm that can accept a flashlight inside the forearm. Gear Head Works uses the Magpul MOE slots for accessories. Midwest Industries uses Keymod for accessories. It's a slick setup.

Here's a picture from Gear Head Works:

RE - Receiver Extension a.k.a. "Buffer Tube."

Some people like to change or swap uppers/lowers based on preference or particular need for a certain feature. For example, if you had a Smith and Wesson M&P15 Sport, you may want to swap that upper that has no dust cover and forward assist for one that does. Or maybe you want to switch that lower with one that has ambidextrous features.

Or maybe you want to swap uppers completely to switch calibers i.e. if you are using one single complete lower with multiple uppers in different caliber (5.56, 300BLK, 6.8, 22lr, 450Bushmaster etc). this feature is also very useful if you have an NFA lower like Select fire or SBR, and you want to use that one NFA lower with different caliber uppers. For example, if you only have one select fire lower and you want to use it on different caliber uppers like 5.56, 22lr, 300blk, and so forth.

People may want to upgrade their RE from a commercial to a milspec tube, or from a basic milspec to the VLTOR A5 System. You cannot do that with the Tavor. LOP is also fixed on the Tavor which may not work for people that have different body types and gear.

As far as FF rails or handguards, you CANNOT switch to an existing (and future offerings) of Keymod or M-LOK handguard on a Tavor.

This is the point that I'm trying to relay here. I know it may seem minor or irrelevant to some, but it is what makes the AR15/M4 system a fantastic weapon--you can modify and tailor anything on the rifle to your particular individual needs or to the needs of a department or military unit.

[Airman596]

RE - Receiver Extension a.k.a. "Buffer Tube."

Some people like to change or swap uppers/lowers based on preference or particular need for a certain feature. For example, if you had a Smith and Wesson M&P15 Sport, you may want to swap that upper that has no dust cover and forward assist for one that does. Or maybe you want to switch that lower with one that has ambidextrous features.

Or maybe you want to swap uppers completely to switch calibers i.e. if you are using one single complete lower with multiple uppers in different caliber (5.56, 300BLK, 6.8, 22lr, 450Bushmaster etc). this feature is also very useful if you have an NFA lower like Select fire or SBR, and you want to use that one NFA lower with different caliber uppers. For example, if you only have one select fire lower and you want to use it on different caliber uppers like 5.56, 22lr, 300blk, and so forth.

People may want to upgrade their RE from a commercial to a milspec tube, or from a basic milspec to the VLTOR A5 System. You cannot do that with the Tavor. LOP is also fixed on the Tavor which may not work for people that have different body types and gear.

As far as FF rails or handguards, you CANNOT switch to an existing (and future offerings) of Keymod or M-LOK handguard on a Tavor.

This is the point that I'm trying to relay here. I know it may seem minor or irrelevant to some, but it is what makes the AR15/M4 system a fantastic weapon--you can modify and tailor anything on the rifle to your particular individual needs or to the needs of a department or military unit.

I can see the LOP being an issue for some, but it isn't as bad as the A2 stock on an M16. I was issued an M16A2 when I was deployed to Afghanistan. Shouldering my issued M16 while wearing body armor was less than ideal for sure. As for the handguard, you can get a keymod handguard from Midwest Industries. Gear Head Works uses the Magpul system. In the picture I posted, you can see the MOE Illumination Kit being used with a flashlight.

I'm seeing the Tavor being sold for as low as $1,500. IWI has sold over 20,000 so far. I may have to reevaluate my opinion on the price of the Tavor. If IWI can lower the price to under $1,500, they'll have a real competitor to the AR.

[Airman596]

Let me put it a different way: the Tavor has everything one would need, but not necessarily everything one would want. While you cannot change the pistol grip on the Tavor, it's comfortable and works well. The Tavor doesn't limit one from using all the popular optics, slings, and accessories (lights, lasers, etc.) that are in common use. One might wish the pistol grip was a different shape or texture, but that's not a show stopper.

Some of the modifications for the AR are done to fix deficiencies. Why some manufacturers continue to put the A2 pistol grip on their products is beyond me. There are numerous pistol grips on the market because the A2 pistol grip sucks. Likewise, there are numerous stocks on the market because the milspec parts suck. There are numerous aftermarket sling attachment solutions for the AR-15 because the original design didn't have a realistic way to mount a sling.

[Airman596]

Doubt it. Not gonna happen, if we move on from the AR styles we will stay with a lot of ergonomically familiar design features.

Bullpup has it's benefits in specific applications. Overall as the "pretty good at everything" gun, it's just not as functional. If we ever see bullpup rifles issued to our guys in a significant amount, it will probably be limited to point man or entry team.

There's a reason the people who have the option to use weapons their home country issues or not, tend to abandon their bullpup design rifles in exchange for ours.

Says who? The AR was very different ergonomically than the M14. The magazine of the M14 was very different ergonomically than the enbloc of the M1. The semiautomatic operation of the M1 was very different ergonomically than the bolt action operation of the 1903. Every evolutionary step has presented ergonomic changes and we've adapted to them.

I say the MDR might be the one because you get a weapon the size of a 10" SBR AR-15 in a range of calibers from 5.56x45mm to .308 Winchester with a 16" barrel. That's damn cool. Of course, that's assuming it works and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Knowing Desert Tech, it'll cost around $2,500.

[JusticeM4]

I'm seeing the Tavor being sold for as low as $1,500. IWI has sold over 20,000 so far. I may have to reevaluate my opinion on the price of the Tavor. If IWI can lower the price to under $1,500, they'll have a real competitor to the AR.

IMO the Tavor needs to be in the $1000 price range i.e. Colt6920 to be truly competitive with the AR/M4. $1500 is still a lot of money to some. If they can lower than pricepoint $400-600 or more then it will have a better chance in the commercial market. I don't know if IWI can do that based on the production cost of the Tavor.

Let me put it a different way: the Tavor has everything one would need, but not necessarily everything one would want. While you cannot change the pistol grip on the Tavor, it's comfortable and works well. The Tavor doesn't limit one from using all the popular optics, slings, and accessories (lights, lasers, etc.) that are in common use. One might wish the pistol grip was a different shape or texture, but that's not a show stopper.

Some of the modifications for the AR are done to fix deficiencies. Why some manufacturers continue to put the A2 pistol grip on their products is beyond me. There are numerous pistol grips on the market because the A2 pistol grip sucks. Likewise, there are numerous stocks on the market because the milspec parts suck. There are numerous aftermarket sling attachment solutions for the AR-15 because the original design didn't have a realistic way to mount a sling.

I'm sure AR manufacturers use A2 grips, flash hiders, and front sight posts to keep familiarity with those who have Military/LE experience with the AR and also to reduce cost. While the A2 parts "suck" as you say, they are functional.

Milspec parts work just fine, but obviously not the best. I speculate that they still use them mainly due to low cost.

I say the MDR might be the one because you get a weapon the size of a 10" SBR AR-15 in a range of calibers from 5.56x45mm to .308 Winchester with a 16" barrel. That's damn cool. Of course, that's assuming it works and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Knowing Desert Tech, it'll cost around $2,500.

The MDR is a neat idea, but its still a bullpup design.

Most people are not quite into bullpups and prefer the standard rifle configurations. It seems like a niche at this point until more people adopt it in the commercial, military, and LE world.

I can see the advantages of bullpups with shorter OAL's. If the MDR tests well in the field, it might be a possible replacement for the AR platform weapons. That is anyone's guess since we don't even know if its a working rifle yet. I doubt it will replace the AR because the US Military is heavily invested in the M4/M16 to change to something different.

Lower retail price of the MDR will also dictate if it can compete or even dethrone the AR/M4. $2500 is a lot of money for one rifle. At that price I'd get a Scar16/17

[Shiz]

Replace the M4, I doubt it.

I would really like one though. I have really wanted a rifle I can suppress that will still get decent velocities, and not be too long still. I am waiting a while to see some reports of how the Tavor handles prolonged suppressor use.

[m4brian]

Replace the M4, I doubt it.

Spot ON. IN the end, the US is a 'logistics over tactics' player ALL DAY LONG. While we go out of our way to field aircraft that are 'over the top' in terms of technology, we have reasons for it. On the grunt end, good enough is good enough, and the M4 has become pretty trusted - too trusted to make a large acquisition move.

[Zeus]

You will not get your two minutes back as I won't get my time back reading most of this thread.

Comical... Bears, no 49'rs, wait! Ravens! Well guess what, I think Microsoft sucks donkey balls and have a house full of Apple products, old and new that runs like a top always and forever... hmmm some folks say the same thing the other way around. What the hell does this have to do with anything? I'm not sure, much like the bashing and defense here. "Tavor, a true successor to the ar15?" um, not likely and for sure not in the foreseeable future. Is it a great platform for it's intended use? Absolutely. I could tell that at the IALEFI Conference last week with only a few mags of trigger time. About all it took to temporarily rewire the software to run speed reloads fast enough for other professionals to say "interesting, that was fast". Then again, I'm told I'm one of those guys who could figure out how to kill a rhino with a pool noodle in about 5-10 mins. That also means jack shit by the way. Am I now spearheading evaluating the Tavor as a possible replacement for my people's needs over Colt? Sure, why not. I'm not defending the Tavor... yet. I just hate to hear professional folks complain about something that boils down to unfamiliar ergonomics and a less than optimum trigger. I will not allow a student to walk up to me and say, this gun doesn't run... no matter what it is. I'll show them that it "can" run, just some are easier to run than others.

...crawling back under my rock.

[jesuvuah]

RE - Receiver Extension a.k.a. "Buffer Tube."

Some people like to change or swap uppers/lowers based on preference or particular need for a certain feature. For example, if you had a Smith and Wesson M&P15 Sport, you may want to swap that upper that has no dust cover and forward assist for one that does. Or maybe you want to switch that lower with one that has ambidextrous features.

Or maybe you want to swap uppers completely to switch calibers i.e. if you are using one single complete lower with multiple uppers in different caliber (5.56, 300BLK, 6.8, 22lr, 450Bushmaster etc). this feature is also very useful if you have an NFA lower like Select fire or SBR, and you want to use that one NFA lower with different caliber uppers. For example, if you only have one select fire lower and you want to use it on different caliber uppers like 5.56, 22lr, 300blk, and so forth.

People may want to upgrade their RE from a commercial to a milspec tube, or from a basic milspec to the VLTOR A5 System. You cannot do that with the Tavor. LOP is also fixed on the Tavor which may not work for people that have different body types and gear.

As far as FF rails or handguards, you CANNOT switch to an existing (and future offerings) of Keymod or M-LOK handguard on a Tavor.

This is the point that I'm trying to relay here. I know it may seem minor or irrelevant to some, but it is what makes the AR15/M4 system a fantastic weapon--you can modify and tailor anything on the rifle to your particular individual needs or to the needs of a department or military unit.

Disclaimer: I do not own a tavor, but sure, I would love to have one. I do own several AR's though. Many of your arguments do not make any logical sense to me. Like how you mentioned that you cannot change RE. It does not have an RE, so of course you cannot change it. You mentioned the A5 system in that argument. From my understanding the A5 system was a solution to a problem with the AR platform (changing barrel lengths/gas systems on the same buffer) so it would have nothing to do with another platform. There may be plenty of keymod and m lok stuff that comes out in the future for the tavor, but no, they will not be AR FF tubes because it is not an AR, and therefore will not use ar parts. Just like the sig 556 is not, and the scar is not, and any other firearm that is not an AR platform will most likely use accessories made for that platform.

You mentioned switching uppers on the AR for caliber changes. That is a great feature of the AR. But the tavor does have that potential, just not with switching an upper, because it does not have an upper. But one can easily switch the barrel and bolt to change calibers.
Length of pull and pistol grips are valid arguments. I will give you that. But everything has its cost. I very rarely ever change the LOP in my stocks and the tavor felt ok to me, although just a little on the long side. But, you do get a full length barrel in an SBRish size package. As usual, there is no free ride.

Guns are tools. There are always going to be areas were the AR will shine, and areas were bullpups and other platforms will shine, that is until someone invents that mythical unicorn perfect gun. Bickering over what one is the ultimate gun seems kind of a waste of time, yet I am taking part in it.

Personally, I think the tavor would make a better choice for a general issue gun after using one for very limited use. I am not saying that it is the best choice for every situation though, and I definitely do not see our military replacing the M4 anytime soon. I think if many could take an unbiased look at the rifle, they would see a different side to it. For instance when people talk about modularity and parts availability and commonality. Yes the AR wins. But do you need it? Do you take advantage of it? Maybe you do and that is good. But did the AR have any of these going for it when it was 2years on the market, probably not. I would dare say that I have seen more options come out for this gun given the time on the market, as compared to many other new platforms. The fact is, the tavor has plenty of potential to outdue the AR, but only time will tell. For instance, while there are not many options yet, it does seem like there is less work involved with the tavor to change things like the trigger, and the handguard system. Who knows how this gun could evolve, look at how much the AR has evolved.

[MorphCross]

The Tavor does have some advantages that are very tangible, try maneuvering in a typical house with a "closed" floorplan with a 14.5 Pinned or longer barrel on a M4gery. Now try doing the same with a Tavor.

Try traveling to another state for a carbine class with an SBR (don't do it if you haven't notified the BATFE). Now try doing it with a Tavor.

Yes the parts availability is a current issue, however when the Tavor saturates the market it will be less of an issue. If it becomes available I would get a spare firing pin, bolt, and the bolt retaining pin, along with spare barrel and bolt assembly in the same length. Maybe a spare stock trigger pack. In terms of components, that would give you a weapon system that would cover most function eventualities.

I love my AR, I love my Tavor, they both do the tasks I have set for them admirably.