US uses bullets ill-suited for new ways of war

[DocGKR]

What effect does the steel penetrator have?

[variablebinary]

This debate is exactly why I said we should be formally evaluating our frontline weapons every 5-10 years.

The issue of M855 + M4A1 should have been addressed a by now.

[tinman44]

tinman44,

I hope your comment is in jest, otherwise you are completely out of touch...

yes pointing out a one liner was in jest.

[SmackDiesel]

This debate is exactly why I said we should be formally evaluating our frontline weapons every 5-10 years.

The issue of M855 + M4A1 should have been addressed a by now.
__________________
Amen and Amen...
There seems to be alot of illinformed carbine owners on this site. Thats the purpose of such forums....to help educate each other and inform.

The SS109 and M855 ball penetrators are excellent munitions; and all on this site (if shooting civilian carbines) would benefit tremendously from shooting these cartridges or close clones. I have to assume 99% of us all have 1-7 to 1-9 twist rate in our carbine uppers. The 55 grn bullet is just too light. PERIOD! Those with longer uppers and longer twists can shoot the 55grn with better results.
There are readily available 62 grn lead core sp's that achieve similar results in performance to their military cousins for about 1/2 to 2/3 the cost. I have finally given up and will rely soley on reloading for my bullet needs. Who cares if I can't penetrate an engine block at 600 meters.....I can still hit it. Besides I squirreled away plenty of M855's from Unc. Sam when he wasnt looking (for a rainy day).

[DocGKR]

"The SS109 and M855 ball penetrators are excellent munitions; and all on this site (if shooting civilian carbines) would benefit tremendously from shooting these cartridges or close clones.}

SS109/M855 are "excellent" for what they were designed for--full auto fire out of the M249 SAW/FN Minimi; they are not particularly consistent nor do they offer ideal terminal performance out of rifles and carbines, especially those with shorter barrels.

[DocGKR]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080529/..._chief_bullets

Chief of staff: Army reviewing complaints over bullets

By JAY REEVES, Associated Press Writer

The military is reviewing soldiers' complaints that their standard ammunition isn't powerful enough for the type of fighting required in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Army's highest-ranking officer said Thursday. But Gen. George W. Casey Jr., the Army chief of staff, said it was too soon to say whether the Pentagon will switch. Current and former soldiers interviewed by The Associated Press said the military's M855 rifle rounds are not powerful enough for close-in fighting in cities and towns in Iraq and Afghanistan. Speaking with reporters at a conference in Huntsville, Casey said leaders are constantly soliciting feedback from soldiers in the field and were aware of complaints about the M855 ammunition. "To effectively prepare them we have to adapt as the enemy adapts, and that is some of the feedback we have gotten," Casey said. "We'll evaluate it quickly and then we'll decide how we want to proceed." But Casey said it would be premature to say if the Pentagon will consider a different type of ammunition. "I can't tell you exactly what we're going to do," he said. The M855 rounds were designed decades ago to puncture the steel helmets of Soviet soldiers from hundreds of yards away. Some soldiers said that they are not large enough to stop an enemy immediately in close quarters. Casey said the military has been evaluating its equipment and practices since the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks. "Technology is pulling us, and what we're learning on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan is pushing us," he said.

[Redmanfms]

Yes, but they get you around the equally as lame 1938 NFA.

Point of order, National Firearms Act was enacted in 1934.

Continue, it's been a very enlightening (and very funny) discussion.....

[DocGKR]

Relevant to the discussion:

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Spickert_Fulton.pdf

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

[Iraqgunz]

Doc,

I agree. The M855 does work well with the SAW and for what is was intended to do at the time- stave off the Russian hordes. I really have to wonder why after the experiences in Somalia and the last few years of GWOT these guys at the upper level don't figure it out.

Is it just a matter of the same old comfortable shoe, influence with the DoD by the embeded companies or just plain old indifference? I carry M855 now because I have to. I also have to wonder if part of the problem is our capacity as a country to be able to produce ammo in quantities and qualities needed?

It wasn't all that long ago that the military was short .50 caliber ammo and started drawing on old war stock.