Army's new Beretta requirements

[BUBBAGUNS]

The metal M9 guide rod will not fit in my 92F. The head (flanged end) is bigger.

[DocMinster]

I know this may not be the place but the continual use of the M9 is not doing us any good. The primary reason is the location of the safety. It's location on the slide makes the cycling of the weapon interesting at best and life threatening when you really need it. My M9 almost always goes to safe when it is the most unoportune time. If I could just remove the safety I would. The only thing my unit uses it for is a decocker.

I have to respectfully disagree with your concerns with the M9/92FS safety. As I believe it is not a common issue and just a worn part issue or user error issue.

I have a dozen individuals that are members of our units Pistol TAG team , and have fired 100-200 rounds every week for the past 2 years. We are experiencing NO safety failures.

Last year we placed 2nd all around point in Vermont's Pistol TAG matches and 1st in points in rifle.

I believe the Beretta M9 is an EXCELLENT firearm.

RELIABILITY:
Out of the 13 months I spent in the "sand box" I had a total of ZERO failures with my M9. In addition to the excellent design of the M9 I believe the major contributing factor to the excellent reliability of the M9 for us was the fact that we kept our weapons clean.

ACCURACY:
From the Firing Line our TAG team fires at their targets 25YARDS away so I don’t believe there is an accuracy problem.
On average our Pistol team members shoot a score of 490 out of a possible 500 points every time we shoot... with a few of them scoring 500's.

Round effectiveness:
From personal experience...
Ball ammo>>>HORRIBLE
JHP>>>very good
And Yes even though a No No ...we had friends ship us Factory JHP (Golden Saber) We took the chance and "threw the dice" and I believe it expeditiously increased our survival rate in the CQB encounters we experienced

Doc

[DocGKR]

I have been issued both 92F's in LE use and M9's in the military and shoot them pretty well. The M9, while reasonably reliable is NOT durable. Slide mounted safeties are lame at best in any weapon; with the M9, we would have been better off going with the original frame mounted 92 safety... The M9 is also very large for a 9 mm. The low bidder Checkmate mags with the interior "crinkle" finish were abysmal. Likewise M882 is pretty pathetic.

I'd much rather carry a G19 or G17 with good expanding ammunition.

[Iraqgunz]

Let me chime in. When I was stationed Bahrain we had approx. 80 pistols in use by our unit. Many of them had seen better days. One of the biggest issues that has already been pointed out is maintenance. These guns had been in theater since early '03 and I arrived in mid- '04. No one could tell me when they had been properly inspected last or anything else. Since I was the only certified armorer I started a program where I went through and did a complete TI (which revealed 3 cracked frames and 2 slides) tore them down and completely replaced every pin and spring. They shot fine afterwards with no problems. Having said that;

1. Check-Mate mags are absolute ****ing garbage and whoever authorized that contract should be flogged.

2. The combination of a 9mm and FMJ isn't the best in the world. The Coast Guard took a bold step in going to the Sig .40.

3. I am much happier with my Glock over here than the Beretta. Aside from the fact that a Glock has about half the associated parts, it is extremely easy and considerably cheaper to replace parts.

[DocMinster]

Let me chime in. When I was stationed Bahrain we had approx. 80 pistols in use by our unit. Many of them had seen better days. One of the biggest issues that has already been pointed out is maintenance. These guns had been in theater since early '03 and I arrived in mid- '04. No one could tell me when they had been properly inspected last or anything else. Since I was the only certified armorer I started a program where I went through and did a complete TI (which revealed 3 cracked frames and 2 slides) tore them down and completely replaced every pin and spring. They shot fine afterwards with no problems. Having said that;

1. Check-Mate mags are absolute ****ing garbage and whoever authorized that contract should be flogged.

2. The combination of a 9mm and FMJ isn't the best in the world. The Coast Guard took a bold step in going to the Sig .40.

3. I am much happier with my Glock over here than the Beretta. Aside from the fact that a Glock has about half the associated parts, it is extremely easy and considerably cheaper to replace parts.

1. Check-Mate mags are absolute ****ing garbage and whoever authorized that contract should be flogged.

LOL I agree... we sh!# canned all of the CM mags. The majority of the mags we have now are the Beretta made "Sand Mags". They are leaps and bounds better than the CM mags.

2. The combination of a 9mm and FMJ isn't the best in the world. The Coast Guard took a bold step in going to the Sig .40.

I agree the FMJ 9mm round is a not the best in the world but a 124gr JHP Golden Saber does the job just fine and you still maintain your accuracy and speed of the 9mm.

If I had my way we would all be carrying a 1911's in .45 or 10mm (but that will never happen)

[ToddG]

I have to respectfully disagree with your concerns with the M9/92FS safety. As I believe it is not a common issue and just a worn part issue or user error issue.

I would respectfully have to disagree with your respectful disagreement.

First, I am a bigger fan of the 92-series than most.

"Beretta Elite Team" of Rob Haught, me, and Ernest Langdon at IDPA Nationals in 2002

I've also dealt with a number of LE and .mil units with regard to their issue Berettas. The incidence of accidentally engaging the slide safety is very high. That's why in-the-know folks who have a choice always seem to opt for the decock-only 'G' models.

Again, this is in no way a slam of the Beretta, just acknowledging a widely reported design issue.

[JonInWA]

Interesting thread. I personally prefer the 92D as my Beretta 92 model of choice, which nicely removes the manual safety as an item of contention. It also has an exceptionally smooth (and significantly lighter) trigger pull than the other 92 models; the "D" trigggerpull can be achieved to a degree on the other models with the use of the D-model's mainspring, but it's also the elimination of notches/catch points in the action (required for the other models) which really clean up the D-model triggerpulls.

On the magazines. The Check-Mate magazine issues have been discussed in detail, with excellent historical threads particularly in the www.berettaforum.net site. To clear some things up: First, Check-Mate was not the lowest bidder; they were choosen as the M9 magazine supplier based on their established quality/performance on other DoD/non-DoD contracts.

Second, the "crackle finish" on the magazines, both in terms of composition, material, and location (i.e., both on the magazines' exterior and {more problematically}interior were specifics called out by the contract. The problem was the fine-grained sand inherent to Iraq. Check-Mate became aware of the problem, and worked with DoD in coming up with a acceptable replacement finish (a dry film application to magazine interiors, exteriors, and followers), which has been in the logistics supply system since 12/05, with the magazines appropriately stamped "12/05." These magazines are excellent, and also have a superior tempered baseplate, superior to the OEM or subsequent polymer Beretta magazine baseplates.

The problem is that the OLD pre 12/05 magzines were not culled from the supply system, and new and old magazines are intermixed at the unit level. The old magazines perform well in temperate environments/climates (i.e., those without fine sand), but as far as I know to date DoD has not sufficiently addressed this issue in theater.

As most of us on this forum are probably aware, a year or so back Larry Vickers had an excellent article in Shotgun News detailing the trials, travails, and overall excellence of the M9 pistol in military issue. Other than the magazine issues, the lack of (or, more properly, the lack of adherence to) operator/unit/echelon maintenance and lubrication protocols is a major factor in problems encountered with the M9 pistol-Larry found over-age recoil springs with grossly high round counts and the lack of proper lubrication to be the main, and endemic, causal factors. I believe him.

Assuming a knowledgeable user and a responsive chain of command, my thoughts are that an effective way of identifying and culling out problematic magazines would be for specific magazines to be assigned to specific weapons, and then the specific weapons to be assigned to specific users. My understanding is that at least some units in theater have gotten away from users being assigned a specific weapon-and appropriately zeroing, using, and maintaining said weapon exclusively. In my day, magazines were treated as a semi-disposable item, and stored seperately, and issued on an ad-hoc basis. In a time of problematic, mixed-lineage/performance magazines, theis philosophy doesn't work very well, unless one's expectation is that a pistol is merely an emblem of office, as opposed to a properly functioning tool who's purpose is to save the user's life against a determined opponent.

If I was in Iraq and to be using a M9 as my PDW, I would do the following: Have the unit armorer replace the recoil spring on my assigned weapon, and I would personally get at least 3 personal magazines-either 12/05 Check-Mates, Beretta, or MDS (a Beretta subsidiary-same internal quality, not quite as nice exterior finish by my personal observation). Although I'd definitely take 'em if I could get 'em, the PVD-finish/sand channel redesigned magazines that Beretta provides for the USMC M9A1 are arguably unnecessary, but hey-a little overkill never hurts.

For lubrication, as a general lube I'd prefer Weapon Shield, or one of the dry-film lubricants such as Dri-Slide or Strike-Hold. If these were unavailable, I'd rely on CLP-but cleaning/lubricating daily, whether the weapon was fired or not.

I agree that the current 9mm ball ammunition is somewhat ineffectual, but equally ineffectual is the conventional .45 ACP ball ammunition in the supply chain. At least the 9mm provides a higher amount of penetration-but that's an issue beyond discussion/resolution at the troop level for 99% of the troops/units concerned.

My bottom line: While I'd personally prefer to have a Glock 17/19 as my PDW of choice in the area discussed, I'd have no qualms in being assigned and using a properly maintained and lubricated M9. I'd also realize that a significant portion of the maintenance responsibility is incumbent upon myself as the operator.

Best, Jon

[DocMinster]

I would respectfully have to disagree with your respectful disagreement.

First, I am a bigger fan of the 92-series than most.

"Beretta Elite Team" of Rob Haught, me, and Ernest Langdon at IDPA Nationals in 2002

I've also dealt with a number of LE and .mil units with regard to their issue Berettas. The incidence of accidentally engaging the slide safety is very high. That's why in-the-know folks who have a choice always seem to opt for the decock-only 'G' models.

Again, this is in no way a slam of the Beretta, just acknowledging a widely reported design issue.

Very interesting... I don't know what type of shooting you are doing so I can’t compare what you know to what our group has experienced. As I said we are shooting TAG matches.

What kind of shooting are you evolved in other than IDPA? are you experiencing this when shooting elsewhere?

Very interesting though.

I will make sure I bookmark this thread and report when one of our shooters encounter this anomaly. But like I said a dozen shooters and some even shooting several different M9s for 2 years now with a round count of 200,000-250,000 and not a single incident.

[Alaskapopo]

The problem with the D model is its DAO with a extremely long trigger pull and reset. Its a great gun if you are a revolver shooter at heart but give me the crisp short SA pull of a 1911 any day. Also while 45 ball is not great its better than 9mm ball.
Pat

[DocMinster]

double post sorry