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Thread: Action spring pressure measurements.

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
    David tests the spring in the following order:

    Worn CAR spring of unknown manufacture
    New CAR spring of unknown manufacture
    Tubbs/SSS AR15 CS Flatwire spring
    Springco WHITE CS spring
    Springco RED CS spring
    Springco ORANGE (.308) CS spring
    Tubbs/SSS .308 CS Flatwire spring
    Interesting video. Thanks for posting it.

    Maybe I am missing something, but are the first 2 springs stock carbine springs or stock rifle springs? He starts off by saying the stock springs are "A2 springs" at about 1:14. I don't think it's a good comparison to the Springco springs if the first 2 are rifle springs.

    Also, he comments on the spring oscillation ("vibrational node") problem which exist in other springs, but not in his flat wire springs. But I clearly see it in his spring at about 17:17. I didn't spend a lot of time looking at video. But I actually see the "problem" more clearly in his springs than in the other springs he shows.

    Joe Mamma
    Last edited by Joe Mamma; 05-04-14 at 00:00.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mamma View Post
    Interesting video. Thanks for posting it.

    Maybe I am missing something, but are the first 2 springs stock carbine springs or stock rifle springs? He starts off by saying the stock springs are "A2 springs" at about 1:14. I don't think it's a good comparison to the Springco springs if the first 2 are rifle springs.

    Also, he comments on the spring oscillation ("vibrational node") problem which exist in other springs, but not in his flat wire springs. But I clearly see it in his spring at about 17:17. I didn't spend a lot of time looking at video. But I actually see the "problem" more clearly in his springs than in the other springs he shows.

    Joe Mamma
    They are AR15 carbine springs.

    As for the spring oscillation, I see what he means, but I watched it on my 1080p 55" 480hz TV. I didn't see it just now when I watched on my laptop (which still has a better-than-720p screen), but it showed up fine on the TV, which doesn't need to scale the image. The other springs vibrate pretty violently while the flatwire seems to oscillate less intensely and over a much shorter duration.

    I'm not sold that this has ANY effect on spring performance in the real world, but I do see the phenomenon he is talking about.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
    Thank you for finding that post.

    Now that I re read it, all that data is from a computer program and not actual observed data.

    The predictions offered don't completely reflect my real world experience. Such as the colt carbine spring being a low stress item.... when I see them get noticeably weaker and shorter in just a few thousand rounds in carbine after carbine.

    His data suggests that shouldn't happen. .. which makes me question the chart.

    Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk
    I certainly can't argue against your experience but his (rsilvers) modeling should be 99% with the correct material. DT has oversimplified the spring. There is much more involved with a spring than just an L1/L2 spring rate.

    His comment about the purpose of the weights in the buffer being necessary to dampen spring resonance is probably inaccurate. I think it flies in the face of what we know to be the purpose of the buffer assembly.
    Last edited by MarkG; 05-04-14 at 00:33.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkG View Post
    I certainly can't argue against your experience but his (rsilvers) modeling should be 99% with the correct material. DT has oversimplified the spring. There is much more involved with a spring than just an L1/L2 spring rate.

    His comment about the purpose of the weights in the buffer being necessary to dampen spring resonance is probably inaccurate. I think it flies in the face of what we know to be the purpose of the buffer assembly.
    I agree with your statement about David's opinion on the buffer's purpose and function.....grain of salt is recommended there.

    I also help design audio loudspeakers and crossovers as a hobby and can tell you that there are models for LOTS of things (such as crossovers). They are usually accurate, but not always. If I lash-up a crossover that is perfect according to the model, but has clear phase-errors in the real world, the real-world experience is obviously correct. It happens pretty frequently, actually, even though the devices being employed are quite simple in electrical terms.

    Models are only as good as the data points that are employed in their creation.

    I'm no spring engineer, but when I see a model predict that a colt carbine spring has a corrected stress percentage at compressed height (using a carbine buffer) of 27.9% versus a Springco Blue carbine spring (which has a corrected stress % of 34.9) that tells me that the Colt spring should have a measurably longer useful life than the Springco. Yet, my real world experience shows me that a Springco Blue can be used for well more than 10k rounds before it begins to lose half the length that a Colt 17-7 spring will lose in 2k-3k rounds in the same gun. I have lost count of the number of times I have personally witnessed this on duty carbines.

    So, no offense to Rsilvers, but when a model's predictive power is brought into question by real world data, the model must be re-examined.
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  5. #15
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    After the CQTAS match yesterday, a few if us compared rifles and shot them fast and hard for a couple of minutes...a buddy of mine had a carbine with a Tubb spring with a ST-T2 buffer (don't care for that choce) and the FSC 556. The gun shot dead flat but I could still hear it running in the tube. My BCM middy with a blue Springco and H3 sporting a BattleComp was obviously my favorite but it seemed a bit harder. My point here was, I had written off the flat wire buffer springs as a fanboy thing but maybe it's time for a 2nd look.

    David talked about "dip". I've noticed that in my Glocks when changing recoil springs (ISMI flat wire BTW). I hadn't noticed any dip when shooting the rifle, if anything it would be the opposite. I'll have to shoot it and pay close attention to that.

    I'm not sure that the "spring vibration" David speaks of really makes any difference though, even when you're shooting really fast. David is a high power shooter not a combat shooter, so in his world there might be a perceptible gain. I still think that if the vibration made any real difference the effect would be exacerbated at high speed. Unless forward bolt carrier bounce is secondary to the action of the spring vibration.

    BufordT,

    I'd be curious about your thoughts and results with his flat wire spring. Especially how it compares to the A5 Springco green as I've been considering getting some A5s. The flat wire might get the job done and it would be cheaper.
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  6. #16
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    Just fyi....Ive been running a RED Sprinco and ST-T2 buffer in my LMT Defender for a few thousand rounds now with 100%
    reliability. I now question if its too hard on the gun or not, in terms of cycling.
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  7. #17
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    Chrome silicon is a terrible choice for spring material on a fighting gun. CS springs are rust bombs. Given that a spring gets its working force from the surface of the material, any rust or corrosion will dramatically affect its service life.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkG View Post
    Chrome silicon is a terrible choice for spring material on a fighting gun. CS springs are rust bombs. Given that a spring gets its working force from the surface of the material, any rust or corrosion will dramatically affect its service life.
    I understand that CS steel rusts more, but tens of thousands of BCM extractor springs over the better part of the past eight years seem to tell a different tale.
    "That thing looks about as enjoyable as a bowl of exploding dicks." - Magic_Salad0892

    "The body cannot go where the mind has not already been."

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkG View Post
    Chrome silicon is a terrible choice for spring material on a fighting gun. CS springs are rust bombs. Given that a spring gets its working force from the surface of the material, any rust or corrosion will dramatically affect its service life.
    I have yet to have a sprinco rust. My bolt rusted but not the buffer spring. The moly coating seems g2g here.

  10. #20
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    I use Sprinco springs exclusively in my AR's and not only has there been minimal spring shrinkage, but I have yet to have any issues with rust, function or otherwise.



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