Page 6 of 27 FirstFirst ... 4567816 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 264

Thread: Did the ATF Open the Door for Manufacture of New Machineguns for trust?

  1. #51
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    25,597
    Feedback Score
    2 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by tb-av View Post
    It's just not natural for most people to be ok with the value of their life long gatherings being reduced to pennies.
    Housing market, 401k, etc. Just another "safe market" destroyed. At least this one would have an upside.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

    كافر

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    AZ-Waging jihad against crappy AR's.
    Posts
    24,902
    Feedback Score
    104 (100%)
    I'll guess you have never read some of the stuff myself and others have seen posted over the years where many of them said just that. I have also heard in conversations as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by CleverNickname View Post
    I wouldn't call that a "fact". "Conjecture", maybe. If you believe that most machine gun owners are in it solely for the presumption that the value of their machine guns will be constantly rising, or that they own machine guns because they enjoy lording it over other shooters that they own a machine gun and the others don't, then you might be correct.

    But in my experience, you're wrong. Most machine gun owners want to buy more machine guns than they currently own, but can't afford to. Do you think the guy who has an M11/9 now doesn't want an M16, or the guy who has an M16 doesn't want an M240? Or what about an MP7 or Glock 18 or any of the numerous other models that weren't available in 1986 and that no one can get short of becoming an FFL/SOT?

    I'm currently down to just an Uzi, having sold my M16 last year and some other ones in the years before that. Not because I needed the money, but because it didn't make financial sense to have so much money tied up in guns that I didn't shoot all that often. If I didn't have to have 5 figures tied up in each machine gun, then I'd have more of them. Also, I can't shoot rifle caliber full-auto on any regular basis because the nearest range I can do that is 70+ miles away. None of the dozen ranges closer to me allow it. Now, if everybody who owns an SBR could have a machine gun instead, then the odds are a lot better that more ranges would allow full-auto.

    And as for actually shooting machine guns, I find that doing mag dumps gets boring really quick. I'd love to shoot machine guns competitively instead of just standing stationary in an indoor lane shooting at paper, or outside shooting at dirt clods or whatever. But the nearest machine gun competition is 250+ miles away, and requires either an overnight trip or getting up at 4 am on a Saturday, so it's been awhile since I've bothered to go. If more people had machine guns, more people would want to shoot them competitively and I could likely do it somewhere closer.

    Not all machine guns would lose all their value, anyways. Sure, an M11/9 would go back to being a couple hundred dollars, but if you think a 1921 Thompson or something like that would lose much of it's value, then I think you're incorrect. A big part of its value is in the fact that it's an original.

    But go on thinking that there's some mysterious cabal of machine gun owners who want to keep the rest of the gun-owning public down.



    Owner/Instructor at Semper Paratus Arms

    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SemperParatusArms/

    Semper Paratus Arms AR15 Armorer Course http://www.semperparatusarms.com/cou...-registration/

    M4C Misc. Training and Course Announcements- http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=141

    Master Armorer/R&D at SIONICS Weapon Systems- http://sionicsweaponsystems.com

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    NoVA
    Posts
    3,190
    Feedback Score
    2 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by CleverNickname View Post
    But go on thinking that there's some mysterious cabal of machine gun owners who want to keep the rest of the gun-owning public down.
    They're called the NFATCA.

  4. #54
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    7,711
    Feedback Score
    10 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    Housing market, 401k, etc. Just another "safe market" destroyed. At least this one would have an upside.
    Almost makes you wonder if there is a method to the madness doesn't it?

    I still think hell will freeze over first though.

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    St. Simons Island, GA
    Posts
    28
    Feedback Score
    0
    Well, it appears that another national type NFA lawyer is also submitted a Form 1 with a supporting memorandum of law. We'll see (no time soon for sure) how it plays out with an official response.

    http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    NoVA
    Posts
    3,190
    Feedback Score
    2 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by edvin70 View Post
    Well, it appears that another national type NFA lawyer is also submitted a Form 1 with a supporting memorandum of law. We'll see (no time soon for sure) how it plays out with an official response.

    http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/
    Why wouldn't you just seek clarification?

    I'm sure at least a hundred other jokesters threw in Form 1's that have zero chance of ever being approved.

    This is not the "Ah-Ha! Gotcha!" moment these people think it is...

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Vegas
    Posts
    6,717
    Feedback Score
    5 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
    Why wouldn't you just seek clarification?

    I'm sure at least a hundred other jokesters threw in Form 1's that have zero chance of ever being approved.

    This is not the "Ah-Ha! Gotcha!" moment these people think it is...
    "Just" seeking clarification won't do anything, the ATF will probably give themselves a double standard and make an inconsistent ruling.

    Just because the ATF can disapprove whatever they want, that doesn't mean it's legal.

    Here's what I forsee happening:

    One of those two lawyers will have their Form 1 or 4 denied. Probably both to be honest.

    They'll appeal, and a judge will most likely side with the lawyers. It's a pretty clear cut case in the law. The Hughes Amendment bans people from possessing and transferring machine guns, but trusts are not people. Done, I drop the mic and rest my case. The ATF letter that sparked this whole thing actually doesn't really matter at all in the grand scheme of things, although it helps. The ATF will then be under a court order to approve the forms and will be required to approve all others that fall under the same relative facts.

    This really is a "gotcha!" moment. I'm actually not sure how people missed that the definition of "person" for the last 28 years didn't include a trust specifically regarding the Hughes Amendment.
    Last edited by Koshinn; 05-19-14 at 17:24.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    367
    Feedback Score
    2 (100%)
    You can't win if you don't play; too bad that eforms is only up for Form 6 right now.

  9. #59
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    AZ-Waging jihad against crappy AR's.
    Posts
    24,902
    Feedback Score
    104 (100%)
    Someone I know locally in AZ who is a lobbyist (several states can thank him for his legislation recently) spoke with another well educated firearms attorney/ NFA guru and his thought was that the BATFE may well approve it, but it doesn't mean you cannot get nailed down the road if they change their position.

    Maybe this will open the door to a legal challenge of the Hughes Amendment.......



    Owner/Instructor at Semper Paratus Arms

    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SemperParatusArms/

    Semper Paratus Arms AR15 Armorer Course http://www.semperparatusarms.com/cou...-registration/

    M4C Misc. Training and Course Announcements- http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=141

    Master Armorer/R&D at SIONICS Weapon Systems- http://sionicsweaponsystems.com

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Vegas
    Posts
    6,717
    Feedback Score
    5 (100%)
    If they approve it, it'd be hard for them to "nail you" as you'd have multiple legal theories on why you're a legitimate owner at that point. And even if they all fail, the ATF would have to give you notice to let you destroy or transfer it before successfully having charges stick, as illegal possession requires intent.
    Last edited by Koshinn; 05-21-14 at 05:40.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

Page 6 of 27 FirstFirst ... 4567816 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •