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Thread: Argument against key mod?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwelz View Post
    This is why I would consider a URX 3.1 with Keymod in place of the slicks the perfect rail. The main place we need rail sections are the top, and the last 2 inches or so on the muzzle end on the sides. By leaving Rail sections there in the base design you give people those options.
    So the Geissele mk4?
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshinn View Post
    So the Geissele mk4?
    Honestly I had not paid any attention to that rail. But now that I have looked yes.
    Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly; the ill deeds along with the good, and let me be judged accordingly.


  3. #93
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    Argument against key mod?

    Quote Originally Posted by themighty9mm View Post
    A friend on mine were discussing the still somewhat new key mod rails, this was a couple weeks ago. Looking at the pic thread sparked interest in the topic for me again. Now keep in mind neither of use or have laid hands on a key mod rail nor, do either of us as of now have a perceived need/want for one. Though he was/is somewhat considering it as an option on a future AR project. Also please keep in mind I do not wish to bash something I know absolutely nothing about. This question is purely based on curiosity and understanding. More of a educate me type question.

    The three possible arguments against them that we could come up with, 1) is a more complicated attachment method, 2) lack of wide spread support as of the time of our discussion, and 3?) the rail becoming warmer faster due to more vent holes, and lack of material.

    In our discussion those were the things we could come up with as possible arguments against key mod.
    To support those possibilities we came up with these reasons/ answers to our own questions. 1) in order to attach a given item, one must first attach a rail section. Or even with direct attach, you are relying on two screws that give the item a friction fit between a couple key mod slots and said screws. 2) Its still new, give it time. And as I am seeing on another thread more and more items are coming online, seemingly daily. And finally, and this is the one that really peaks my curiosity. 3) Given the even closer still nature of the key mod rails, the even more airflow allowed through the rails due to the key mod slots, and the even thinner still nature of the keymod rails. We assumed one would feel a considerable more amount of heat. We figured with the pic/quad type rails, being both thicker and generally slightly further away they also act as something of a heat sink, mostly due to the thickness of the material. Now that's not quite the right term, but hopefully close enough, so that you guys understand our line of thinking.

    So is argument 1, and 3 even remotely valid or are we completely off base? Obviously argument 2 will/is working itself out with time. Based off the demand I have seen in the pic threads it certainly does look like the latest and greatest fashion tread (that is not ment as a hit against them, just a phrase). Also any other arguments against them? Again this is just ment as a post for my own understanding and education, just a learning post. Nothing more, nothing less

    I understand the 2 big arguments for them. Lighter weight, less unused space. Myself. as of now I am going to stick with the pic/quad rails I have for a couple reasons. I already have them, I liked them when I bought them, and that hasn't changed, I don't like how tube rails feel. The feeling that I am grabbing a number 2 pencil with a c clamp ish grip doesn't do it for me, I like a thicker area to grab on to, so I really doubt I'd enjoy them. Though things do change. And in the primary role I use my AR's for, home defense as a civilian I don't have a need for lightest weight possible.
    1.) The attachment isn't more complicated. It's about the same as putting something onto a rail, only you are putting a rail onto the gun, and then putting an accessory on the rail. It's not as bad as something like putting Troy rails on a TRX, especially before they made longer screws.

    2.) Lack of widespread support? What do you mean? If a quad rail breaks, you call the company and they send you a new one. If a key mod rail breaks, same thing. If you intentionally broke it, then you buy a new one. Works the same way for any rail type. So, if you mean customer service support, it's about the same for any rail. If you mean support in terms of the rail being chosen by experts or professionals, then yeah, there are tons and tons of expert trainers and famous people using keymod. Frankly, I don't really know any solid instructors that aren't using keymod. If you mean that the military hasn't chosen it, well, SF guys use it now, and the army will use it 10 years from now. Just because the army uses something at the moment doesn't mean that it's the best choice available.

    3.) If the rail heats up faster, remember that it stands to reason that it also cools faster.

    4.) You are biased by believing that thin doesn't work for you. It's sort of like that gun shop myth where you hear the salesperson say, "Buy what feels best in your hand." When in reality you should buy what feels best in your hand while firing. Kinda like how the big grip straps on a gun are best for mitigating recoil for most people, yet most people put the small grip strap on because it "feels best" (when not firing). Aside from your subjective experience of how rail vs rail feels in a shop, which one can you fire best? Have you had any professional instruction on how to grip one rail vs another? I also enjoy how the quad rail feels in my hand when not firing. However, a round rail doesn't really move (because of the way I can grip it), and I can fire as fast as I want. This is important.

    5.) You are biased as to what you believe a home defense gun should be. Some guys have a 5 shot revolver, because, "If you need more than that, you're just stupid." Well, unfortunately, the bad guy or bad guys pick the fight and you just get to show up. Maybe you're picturing a single burglar. I hope you never have to use a gun to defend yourself, and I hope I never do either. It would be wise to plan to fend off 10 people, so that one is a piece of cake. What if you had to instantly abandon your home at the drop of a hat and run away? Yes, a home defense gun should have a sling. At minimum, you should know and be able to hit your offsets at anything from 1-200 yards. Hopefully 1-25 yards while running. Hopefully you don't need a lighter gun when it's too late.

    6.) You are biased in believing that this is a fashion trend. Quad rails were a fashion trend, Magpul and Sopmod butstocks were a fashion trend. Red dots were a fashion trend...the list goes on and on. Recognize evolution. While we may use something better in the future, it will be based on a tubular keymod system and not revert back to a quad rail system.
    Last edited by joshrunkle35; 05-26-14 at 15:26.
    Director of Training for Task Force Special Operations - a private security company

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    By leaving a rail section or two on the KMR, you have say.. 6" of unused rail space. You still have approximately 30 inches of slick surface (bottom and sides combined) on the middle of the rail.

    You could also simply keep a rail section and wrench stowed in your gear. The real problem is that your pistol isn't keymod light attach!
    Frankly, I would probably run an X300 Ultra from the start, forward the front sight like LAV does if I were to setup a KMR Rail gun, a Magpul sling mount off the 12 o'clock rail since I don't care for QD mounts, and I would insist on the BCM or aftermarket covers for a more aggressive grip surface. Now I have a a purpose-built carbine/upper and NO need for extra tools. And they keymod holes are there too should I ever want them.

    If keymod starts showing up on my pistols...part of me will die a little inside.

  5. #95
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    I think you may not have fully grasped what I was saying. My response will be in bold

    Quote Originally Posted by joshrunkle35 View Post
    1.) The attachment isn't more complicated. It's about the same as putting something onto a rail, only you are putting a rail onto the gun, and then putting an accessory on the rail. It's not as bad as something like putting Troy rails on a TRX, especially before they made longer screws.
    That is more complicated. By adding a rail section first, then adding what one desires. Is more complicated than just adding, what one desires. However, direct placement via no rails at all solves that
    2.) Lack of widespread support? What do you mean? If a quad rail breaks, you call the company and they send you a new one. If a key mod rail breaks, same thing. If you intentionally broke it, then you buy a new one. Works the same way for any rail type. So, if you mean customer service support, it's about the same for any rail. If you mean support in terms of the rail being chosen by experts or professionals, then yeah, there are tons and tons of expert trainers and famous people using keymod. Frankly, I don't really know any solid instructors that aren't using keymod. If you mean that the military hasn't chosen it, well, SF guys use it now, and the army will use it 10 years from now. Just because the army uses something at the moment doesn't mean that it's the best choice available.
    Lack of support meaning, just that. Not customer service, but lack of items available that use key mod in a direct attach way. But just as I said, its still new so that will come with time.
    3.) If the rail heats up faster, remember that it stands to reason that it also cools faster.
    And until it does cool, its hot. My thinking, and users seem to support my thoughts, with a rail closer to the barrel, with more vents, and being thinner. It does indeed get warmer faster.
    4.) You are biased by believing that thin doesn't work for you. It's sort of like that gun shop myth where you hear the salesperson say, "Buy what feels best in your hand." When in reality you should buy what feels best in your hand while firing. Kinda like how the big grip straps on a gun are best for mitigating recoil for most people, yet most people put the small grip strap on because it "feels best" (when not firing). Aside from your subjective experience of how rail vs rail feels in a shop, which one can you fire best? Have you had any professional instruction on how to grip one rail vs another? I also enjoy how the quad rail feels in my hand when not firing. However, a round rail doesn't really move (because of the way I can grip it), and I can fire as fast as I want. This is important.
    I am well aware of shoot it before you judge. I had a troy, delta rail. Think that's what its called anyways. It was a tube style rail, with a fsp cut out. I did not appreciate how thin it felt. This whole topic, came up from a friend and mines discussion. Neither of us knew. So figured I'd ask some guys that own them. Was more asking out of curiosity than wanting someone to sway me towards them. As I already am fairly confident I don't like such small diameter rails
    5.) You are biased as to what you believe a home defense gun should be. Some guys have a 5 shot revolver, because, "If you need more than that, you're just stupid." Well, unfortunately, the bad guy or bad guys pick the fight and you just get to show up. Maybe you're picturing a single burglar. I hope you never have to use a gun to defend yourself, and I hope I never do either. It would be wise to plan to fend off 10 people, so that one is a piece of cake. What if you had to instantly abandon your home at the drop of a hat and run away? Yes, a home defense gun should have a sling. At minimum, you should know and be able to hit your offsets at anything from 1-200 yards. Hopefully 1-25 yards while running. Hopefully you don't need a lighter gun when it's too late.
    You are correct, I am biased at to what I believe a HD gun should be. A long gun should have a few things. A red dot, a quality light, and a loaded magazine. Mine meets those requirments. Not sure how closing my hand in a c clamp style fashion, just a little bit more is going to effect that. And if my deal breaker is 7 oz... Then I'm screwed anyways. Also not sure where you got, anything about using a j frame for HD from? As far as what I envision a HD scenario being. No clue other than, I do agree. Be as ready as one reasonably can be for the worst. And strongly consider bringing more gun than the other guy/guys
    6.) You are biased in believing that this is a fashion trend. Quad rails were a fashion trend, Magpul and Sopmod butstocks were a fashion trend. Red dots were a fashion trend...the list goes on and on. Recognize evolution. While we may use something better in the future, it will be based on a tubular keymod system and not revert back to a quad rail system.
    Why are you assuming I believe this is just a fashion trend? It's quite clearly here to hang out for awhile, based on the number of manufacturers making them. If you gathered that from my OP. That was more of just a phrase, along the lines of sarcasm. Thought that was apparent. Guess I was wrong
    Last edited by themighty9mm; 05-26-14 at 19:25.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    Cool down with the KMR ELW is freakishly quick. The ventilation of the hand guard and the profile of the barrel allow it to shed heat ridiculously fast. I didn't time it or anything, but I did notice that when I let the rifle lay on my tailgate to cool a bit, I was shocked when I checked on it. It was completely cooled off in half the time I'd have expected with a Gov profile and standard handguard.
    Was that the "Fluted" version?
    Last edited by SiGfever; 05-27-14 at 09:47.
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  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by pointblank4445 View Post
    If keymod starts showing up on my pistols...part of me will die a little inside.
    "You people have too much time on your hands." - scottryan

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    ^^^ haha


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  9. #99
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    Keymod will probably never appear on pistols, just like it'll probably never appear on top of receivers. Keymod, by design, requires space below the mounting surface. On a rail, there's space between the rail itself and the barrel. Pistol and receiver keymod would require a hollow area, thus probably increasing height over (or under) bore and arguably weakening the mounting surface.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  10. #100
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    I have an argument against key mod. Only 1 of my Noveske rifles have it and I don't have the funds to convert them all!
    Originally Posted by Iraqgunz
    This is 2012. The world is going to end this December and people are still trying to debate the merits of piece of shit, cost cutting crap AR's. Really?

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