Insurgent tactics - Assault on outpost

[TAZ]

I've got zero military experience to back up my opinion but some of these Afghanis have been fighting with or against the best-trained military units of the two most powerful nations on the planet for thirty-five ****ing years.

I'm guessing they've picked up a trick or two.

10000+ to this. They fought the Russians (who aren't really known to hamper themselves FUBAR ROE) and prevailed. They have fought the US for over a decade and in all likelihood will prevail after having killed and maimed a lot of our men and women. They aren't Delta, Devgru or Spetsnaz. He'll they probably aren't even a rag tag groups of reservists when it comes to tactical ability or understanding. They are however good at killing our people and surviving. Not taking them seriously as an enemy is a bad idea.


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[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I've got zero military experience to back up my opinion but some of these Afghanis have been fighting with or against the best-trained military units of the two most powerful nations on the planet for thirty-five ****ing years.

I'm guessing they've picked up a trick or two.

That, and the dumb and/or unlucky ones are dead.

[Heavy Metal]

That's an interesting way of looking at it.

My take is that they chose their target and course of action based on reconnaissance and intel. Their intent was to inflict casualties, and perhaps scrounge some equipment and finances. They accomplished this with very few casualties.

Like I said in another place, one guy with a PKM or a RPG could have fried them before they got deployed from that Toyota.

And if they had the high ground, why didn't they put a PKM or a couple of SVD's in the overwatch?

[Safetyhit]

I am not sure I understand your reasoning.

That's certainly ok because you're not the first here in this forum or in my immediate life to feel that way. Also not looking to completely discredit all you say because without over-simplifying you're acknowledging them having gone beyond the likes of this sort of episode: http://www.military.com/video/operat...1325787205001/

[SOW_0331]

I've got zero military experience to back up my opinion but some of these Afghanis have been fighting with or against the best-trained military units of the two most powerful nations on the planet for thirty-five ****ing years.

I'm guessing they've picked up a trick or two.

Video was from an attack in Yemen. So, not Afghan fighters.

[montanadave]

Video was from an attack in Yemen. So, not Afghan fighters.

In my best Emily Litella voice, "Never mind."

[Belmont31R]

You're welcome to your opinion, however I'm sure you're aware that insurgency isn't the same war fighting in general. While they may be semi-trained, gutsy insurgents they often prove easy to defeat in direct combat. Which is why I used the sneaky rat analogy. Now if you want to say that's because they lack ideal numbers, arms and equipment it's another argument, but even then muslim armies tend to fold rather quickly when confronted by an equal force.

Would you disagree with that assessment?

Sorry but I'd put the Chechens we encountered as the best of anything US forces are ever to likely encounter. The snipers van we captured was as good as anything at taking life, and no doubt that van took a lot of lives. These guys have been at war since birth. Not sure why you're passing them off. You don't need to be SOF to take lives.

[SOW_0331]

Sorry but I'd put the Chechens we encountered as the best of anything US forces are ever to likely encounter. The snipers van we captured was as good as anything at taking life, and no doubt that van took a lot of lives. These guys have been at war since birth. Not sure why you're passing them off. You don't need to be SOF to take lives.

+1

These "Muslim armies" are about as far from being the "first to fold" as you can get. They prefer not to engage in direct action. Understandable, as I feel the same. Not that I won't go into a head on fight, but those cost lives for both sides. If you can fight using tactics that give you an advantage, you do it.

Since M4C members like to take classes to be ready for anything, would you call someone a sneaky rat for biting in a fist fight? Grabbing and twisting balls, clawing eyes, etc? When you fight for your life there's no such thing as fair.

As far as Arctic1 wanting a technical discussion, there's a lot to be learned here. These guys that got attacked weren't Boy Scouts making keychains for a fundraiser. They weren't unarmed, in fact they had more capable weapons than the attackers. What they were was complacent. This is very likely why they were attacked, as a lot of R&S video is included with the raid footage. This looks to be an entry checkpoint OP, likely some sort of VCP for a larger force that rotates guard duties. Their posture was weak and they made themselves a target, and they seemed to be caught off guard by the idea that they would be put into an overwhelming fight like this.

[SOW_0331]

Observations and takeaways from this video, for those who are interested in using it to better their training plans or readiness...

Terrain - If you've been to NE Africa or Yemen, the terrain can be used to create choke points. This is why I feel the position that was attacked was much more likely a VCP than any sort of encampment. There's one road running through the camp, likely the only road through that mountain region for vehicle travel. If they were a more competent force they would have set up a small OP right where the attackers seemed to be doing their R&S and the incident could have been avoided.

Defensive Obstacles - There were none. For a checkpoint or even a random encampment, these guys did nothing to slow incoming traffic and give them the upper hand. Serpentines, trenches, sand bag barriers, debris. Use anything to slow vehicles from approaching your pos and give you time to prepare or to check out the approaching vehicle. Drag a log into your driveway if you must...

Prep Time - Don't count on it. Attacks don't usually come when you're at your prime to fight back. Don't be these guys. If you think you'll have time to run to your basement and get your favorite gun from the safe, then back upstairs to "kit up", and back to your favorite room for fighting...think again. Much like home invasions, any attack by those who would harm you will be fast and you'll be fighting with whatever you have on you or within reach. What do you have on you right now?

Team Organization - This attack would have failed if there had been competent leadership properly utilizing numbers. If there had been a team or small element running interference, they may have been killed, but those PKMs would have destroyed that truck long before the fighters could jump out. I have the name of a friend of mine tattooed on my chest, he stood in front of a dump truck and went cyclic with his SAW, forcing an asshole to prematurely detonate his SVBIED. Had him and another Marine not been out there keeping an active blocking position, a platoon of Marines would have been vaporized. Once you set up a forward element you leave it in place. They don't return to the common area to be relieved, their relief goes to them.

Proficiency - If those in the camp were more proficient with their weapons, they may have stood a better chance. Maybe. The ones who got rounds off didn't do much good by blindly firing back.

Willingness and Commitment - Some of the camp broke and ran, only to be killed in their pathetic retreat. When you're in a fight like this you fight until you're dead. Period. Don't ever expect mercy or hope for an escape. The attackers were committed and never slowed or hesitated even under fire. If the defending force had simply taken a knee and found cover to return fire they may have repelled the attack. It seemed to be a 1-1 ratio of fighters, this wasn't a particularly overwhelming force by numbers.

I'll end with this, something I once heard;
"You may be a better shooter, but if the other guy wants it more, he'll win.
You may want it more, but if the other guy is a better shooter, he'll win."

Train hard, train for the unexpected, and never lose your resolve.

[Arctic1]

Great points SOW_0331!